osprey_archer: (books)
[personal profile] osprey_archer
I read Pride and Prejudice for the first time in high school, and hadn’t reread it until now. However, I’ve seen a bunch of adaptations, not least my beloved Lizzie Bennet Diaries, the modern-day vlog retelling over which I obsessed for a year. So it’s interesting to see how both the passage of time and the new light shed on the story by adaptations has changed my opinions over time.

Of course in some cases, I mean that my opinion has come full circle. In high school, I shared Elizabeth’s horror when her friend Charlotte agreed to marry that rat Mr. Collins. Later on, I grew more sympathetic to Charlotte: surely marrying Collins would be better than being a spinster in Regency England! (My recollection is that the 2005 adaptation makes this point with particular force.)

Rereading it now, it occurred to me that Jane Austen, Regency Spinster, probably has a better idea than I do what fates would be worse than being a Regency spinster, and she is absolutely right that being married to Mr. Collins would be on the list, at least for sensible, level-headed Charlotte Lucas. Moralistic Mary Bennet and Mr. Collins might have been well-suited, although they would have encouraged each other’s worst tendencies and become utterly unbearable to everyone else. Compare their reactions to Lydia’s elopement: Mary reflects piously how easily a woman’s precious reputation can be stained, while Mr. Collins writes to the Bennets to state that he’s shocked, shocked that they received Lydia at their house after the way she behaved! A match made in heaven. Pity Mr. Collins didn’t think of it.

Speaking of Lydia. Modern adaptations often seem troubled by Austen’s unsparing portrayal: she is gleefully unrepentant when she returns from her elopement with Wickham which would have destroyed her own reputation and severely injured her sisters’ future prospects, and continues just as “untamed, unabashed, wild, noisy, and fearless” as ever.

The Lizzie Bennet Diaries, in particular, makes it one of its main projects to rehabilitate Lydia both with viewers and with her exasperated sister Lizzie. (And, let it be said, it succeeded, at least with me: Lydia is my favorite character in LBD, although it pains me to say so because I love them alllllll.) For the most part she displays that same noisy, unabashed character, although with a strain of vulnerability that Austen’s Lydia never shows… right up until the Wickham debacle, which in this version takes the form of a sex tape that Wickham intends to sell online for cash. LBD Lydia collapses like a house of cards.

Now of course this is an extremely understandable reaction, and given that aforementioned streak of vulnerability it follows naturally from Lydia’s character in the adaptation. But the adaptation would have been closer to the original if Lydia had yelled, “Woo hoo! If this sex tape goes well, I’m going to start a career as a camgirl, and then I’ll be financially independent LONG before Jane and Lizzie move out of the house!”

…actually that would be a fantastic adaptation choice, but it would definitely have alienated a lot of viewers (probably including my 2013 self) and therefore undermined LBD’s “reconcile the sisters” project.

Jane Austen hasn’t any intention of reconciling Lydia with her despairing elder sisters. She has no more sentimental investment in sisterhood than she has in marriage, or friendship, or parent-child relationships, or indeed any other human relationship that you can name. None of these relationships are either good or bad by nature: they are good or bad entirely as the individuals within them make them so. And from that point of view, there's no reason for Jane and Elizabeth to try to reconcile with Lydia: she is what she is and they are what they are, and the mere fact that they are sisters will not make them mix.

Date: 2022-10-01 07:29 pm (UTC)
sovay: (Sovay: David Owen)
From: [personal profile] sovay
“Woo hoo! If this sex tape goes well, I’m going to start a career as a camgirl, and then I’ll be financially independent LONG before Jane and Lizzie move out of the house!”

I haven't seen The Lizzie Bennet Diaries, but as a person who has read Pride and Prejudice, I resent not being able to see that.

Date: 2022-10-02 12:22 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
That is HILARIOUSLY in character, and then Darcy would have to try to buy up all the tapes or something. And Wickham would probably keep one for insurance (while telling Lydia it's because he loves her so much, darling).

Date: 2022-10-03 02:54 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
OH
MY
GOD

SHE REALLY WOULD

Date: 2022-10-01 08:13 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: created by the ninja girl (Default)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
I've read Pride and Prejudice a couple of times, but not recently. From your last paragraph, I'm getting the sense that Elizabeth and Jane are going to cut Lydia out of their lives, but is that the case? (I ask because I think Earlier Me would have been mildly distressed by this.) How does the story leave Lydia. She's at home but not married, yes? I wonder what her prospects are, practically speaking.

I like your camgirl plot! Why would your 2013 self have been alienated by it?

Date: 2022-10-01 08:32 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: (miroku)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
Damn, how could I have forgotten they got married! Sheesh, that's right! And there's a marriage that's going to be miserable for both of them in five, four, three, two... now! But better than the alternative for Lydia.

She was very self-centered; I agree. And I think your 2013 self makes a good argument for not going in for a career in porn, though I guess I always feel conflicted, not about sex work (or at least, that's no where my thoughts are going right now), but on the self-fulfillment v. thinking about others question. I guess it's like so many other things and depends on what the person wants to do for self-fulfillment. Joining the Peace Corps despite daddy's wishes that you go into corporate law won't rile readers/viewers, but scamming widows out of their family fortunes meager savings despite your family's pleas that you Not Do That will.
Edited (I could see the Robin Hood rationale for bilking the widow of a Vanderbilt, so i've just altered the scenario a little.) Date: 2022-10-01 08:33 pm (UTC)

Date: 2022-10-01 09:10 pm (UTC)
troisoiseaux: (Default)
From: [personal profile] troisoiseaux
But better than the alternative for Lydia.

I don't think the full significance of Lydia running away with Wickham really hit me until I watched the TV show Harlots, about sex workers in Georgian England— I can't remember if there was a character with an actually similar background or someone pointed out in a meta post that this was Lydia's other option - sex work, in a brothel if she was lucky - if Wickham hadn't been paid off to marry her, but it was like, OH. That's why she would have been Lost To Her Family Forever and Ruined Her Sisters' Chances At A Marriage.

Interestingly, there are actually two modern P&P adaptions that have gone for "sex tape" as an interpretation of the Lydia/Wickham plot— Fire Island did it as well.

Date: 2022-10-01 11:51 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: (black crow on a red ground)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
Yeah, very grim :(

Date: 2022-10-05 08:53 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: (miroku)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
To be fair to the internet era, I think when people talk about toxic people, it's something more than just hard to put up with.

But maybe you're right, because maybe Austen kind of does expect that people should put up with even truly toxic people--thinking of Wickham, who so does not get the comeuppance he deserves (and is not cut out of people's lives).

Also I think you're right that coworkers are a good equivalent of Austen-period neighbors: people who you are going to be in contact with, willy-nilly, who you just have to deal with.

Date: 2022-10-01 10:44 pm (UTC)
landofnowhere: (Default)
From: [personal profile] landofnowhere
As I recall, the the leverl of distancing isn't quite *that* strong -- I just looked it up:

Though Darcy could never receive him[Wickham] at Pemberley, yet, for Elizabeth’s sake, he assisted him further in his profession. Lydia was occasionally a visitor there, when her husband was gone to enjoy himself in London or Bath; and with the Bingleys they both of them frequently staid so long, that even Bingley’s good humour was overcome, and he proceeded so far as to talk of giving them a hint to be gone.

I think there's some amount of Jane and Lizzie still putting up with Lydia for the sake of family, even though they'd rather not. Sigh.

(I love LBD, because sister stories are my jam, but the Lydia there is a different character.)

Date: 2022-10-02 12:33 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
LOL damn, I thought I had checked to see if someone quoted the ending. It's totally IC with those dry updates Austen gives about how her villains are doing pretty well, and happy as far as they can be happy, being shallow superficial people &c &c.

Lydia's letter is one of those devastating indictments Austen loves to put in characters' own mouths, too. She's so great.

Date: 2022-10-02 12:29 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Not really, and it's hilarious.

The letter was to this effect:

“My dear Lizzy,
“I wish you joy. If you love Mr. Darcy half as well as I do my dear Wickham, you must be very happy. It is a great comfort to have you so rich, and when you have nothing else to do, I hope you will think of us. I am sure Wickham would like a place at court very much, and I do not think we shall have quite money enough to live upon without some help. Any place would do, of about three or four hundred a year; but however, do not speak to Mr. Darcy about it, if you had rather not.

“Yours, etc.”

As it happened that Elizabeth had much rather not, she endeavoured in her answer to put an end to every entreaty and expectation of the kind. Such relief, however, as it was in her power to afford, by the practice of what might be called economy in her own private expences, she frequently sent them. It had always been evident to her that such an income as theirs, under the direction of two persons so extravagant in their wants, and heedless of the future, must be very insufficient to their support; and whenever they changed their quarters, either Jane or herself were sure of being applied to for some little assistance towards discharging their bills. Their manner of living, even when the restoration of peace dismissed them to a home, was unsettled in the extreme. They were always moving from place to place in quest of a cheap situation, and always spending more than they ought. His affection for her soon sunk into indifference; hers lasted a little longer; and in spite of her youth and her manners, she retained all the claims to reputation which her marriage had given her.

Though Darcy could never receive him at Pemberley, yet, for Elizabeth’s sake, he assisted him further in his profession. Lydia was occasionally a visitor there, when her husband was gone to enjoy himself in London or Bath; and with the Bingleys they both of them frequently staid so long, that even Bingley’s good humour was overcome, and he proceeded so far as to talk of giving them a hint to be gone.


BINGLEY TALKS OF GIVING THEM A HINT TO BE GONE. That is pretty fucking far to push Bingley! But my impression from that is Elizabeth saves up pocket money or whatever to send Lydia, and Jane and Elizabeth are probably both soft touches when Lydia sends up "we're about to be run out of town for not paying the bills including the rent" flares. Only Lydia occasionally visits Elizabeth, but Jane and Bingley are total pushovers (and we love them for it).

Date: 2022-10-02 12:51 am (UTC)
conuly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] conuly
Any place would do, of about three or four hundred a year; but however, do not speak to Mr. Darcy about it, if you had rather not.

*googles frantically*

Am I reading this right? Did Lydia straight up ask for a full-on income of about $20k in modern USD? I know that exchanging currency in two dimensions - different countries, vastly different eras - is a tricky business, but seriously.

Date: 2022-10-02 01:00 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
//cackles

She's probably asking for more than that! but I suck at math.

Date: 2022-10-02 04:45 pm (UTC)
conuly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] conuly
I actually reduced the amount somewhat in case my arithmetic was wonky, because I just could not believe it.

Date: 2022-10-02 02:53 am (UTC)
ethelmay: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ethelmay
Not that Darcy should pay the Wickhams that directly, but that Darcy might find Wickham a job that would pay that much. And Darcy "assisted him further in his profession," so presumably in a way he does. (Though he probably doesn't get him a position at court.)

Date: 2022-10-02 04:44 pm (UTC)
conuly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] conuly
Probably less of a hassle all around to just give him the money directly rather than deal with having to ask people "Look, can you take on my totally useless brother-in-law and give him some harmless job where it doesn't matter too much if he fucks it up?"

Date: 2022-10-03 02:59 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
....oh ghod, Lydia probably specified a court job because she wants to be presented at court, doesn't she, or am I projecting the Victorian era backwards?

Date: 2022-10-04 01:21 am (UTC)
ethelmay: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ethelmay
I think whether one is presented at court is more a matter of rank, which Wickham wouldn't acquire just by getting a job as a courtier. But I am no expert. Wickham might actually have been quite good at schmoozing with George IV.

Date: 2022-10-03 02:47 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: (good time)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
LOL, Star Wars voice: the opportunist is strong in this one.

Date: 2022-10-03 03:00 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Jasper Fforde missed a real trick in never having Lydia and Becky Sharp meet up.

Date: 2022-10-03 02:46 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: created by the ninja girl (Default)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
Aww, this is a very good sort of ending. Darcy is a hero, isn't he! And this feels so real. All families have someone like Lydia in them.

I'm grateful to everyone for reminding me of how the story actually went!

Date: 2022-10-03 02:52 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
LOL, I had to look it up because I thought Lydia was MORE welcome than she actually was, but I should have realized she would avoid Darcy (would Darcy outright forbid her? I doubt it, after his first disastrous proposal nearly blew everything up, but I bet he would GLARE at her) and the pushover Bingleys would never say no. But poor Bingley would TALK of giving her a HINT! From anyone else that would probably be the equivalent of banning them from the grounds.

Date: 2022-10-03 03:02 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: created by the ninja girl (Default)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
I really love how Jane Austen is able to give people such distinctive, identifiable, yet not stereotyped (by and large?) personalities. So good. Sweet, hapless Bingley :D

Date: 2022-10-03 03:10 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Ordinarily goody-goody characters annoy the crap out of me, but Jane and Bingley are just so adorable. (It's so funny Jane named the character probably the least like her after herself!)

Date: 2022-10-02 12:22 am (UTC)
kore: (Miss Bennet)
From: [personal profile] kore
Lydia is one of those great examples of Jane Austen villains who wind up hilariously unrepentant and just keep making everyone around them miserable. It's one of the things I always think of when people call Austen conventional &c &c. I haven't seen LBD but I feel any adaptation that tries to rehab Lydia (or Mary for that matter) is missing the point of her.

Jane Austen hasn’t any intention of reconciling Lydia with her despairing elder sisters. She has no more sentimental investment in sisterhood than she has in marriage, or friendship, or parent-child relationships, or indeed any other human relationship that you can name.

Austen getting written off as "a romance writer" is REALLY something for the angels to weep over, altho I think it would probably have sardonically amused her, like most things.

Date: 2022-10-03 02:53 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Lydia is damn lucky she didn't wind up in a Thomas Hardy novel, she would die terribly while he told you at length how terrible and fated it was.

Her books are littered with people led astray because they believed themselves "in love," only to realize that they were merely in lust and really find their partner unbearable! But TOO LATE, now they are bound together for life.

Did you mean: Mr and Mrs Bennet

Date: 2022-10-02 08:39 am (UTC)
thisbluespirit: (reading)
From: [personal profile] thisbluespirit
“Woo hoo! If this sex tape goes well, I’m going to start a career as a camgirl, and then I’ll be financially independent LONG before Jane and Lizzie move out of the house!”

LOL, that is, indeed, accurate modern Lydia. XD

Date: 2022-10-02 12:00 pm (UTC)
littlerhymes: (Default)
From: [personal profile] littlerhymes
Oh Lydia's complete lack of mortification - she's committing to the bit! Camgirl Lydia let's GO.

Both the 1995 and 2005 adaptations make the point that Charlotte is making a pragmatic choice but in very different ways. In 1995 she carefully points out to Lizzie that he keeps to his part of the house and she to hers, and with a bit of careful management they don't even have to interact! Whereas in 2005 it's much more dramatic "I'm 27 and I have no prospects and I'm scared!" declaration. I do find Mr Collins more odious as I get older (god, he would have a FIELD day mansplaining things on Reddit) but Charlotte has a point. Moving out of home is SO nice.

Date: 2022-10-03 02:57 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Now that is playing the long game.

Of course he could always leave an odious will, a la Mr Casaubon and Dorothea.

Date: 2022-10-04 01:27 am (UTC)
ethelmay: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ethelmay
Longbourn, not Netherfield Hall. Actually that would be a pretty interesting scenario. Has anyone written fanfic about Charlotte as The Mistress of Longbourn?

Date: 2022-10-05 08:07 am (UTC)
silverusagi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverusagi
“Woo hoo! If this sex tape goes well, I’m going to start a career as a camgirl, and then I’ll be financially independent LONG before Jane and Lizzie move out of the house!”

I can totally see this happening. I mean, I love LBD, but this would have been A TWIST. A faithful interpretation of the book character, but still A TWIST to the modern audience's mind.

One thing I really liked about the 1995 adaptation is how well Lydia's actress did. Lydia as a character isn't stuck up or putting on airs, she REALLY IS just that unabashed and unthinking of others. (I know I hated Lydia in the stilted 1980 adaptation, and I really can't remember the 2005 one, because I didn't like much about it.)
Edited Date: 2022-10-05 08:08 am (UTC)

Date: 2022-10-05 06:43 pm (UTC)
silverusagi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverusagi
Maybe Darcy swoops in and buys the company and then Lydia goes on to become a cam girl anyway. "With content that *I* own and much better production value to show off all my good angles!! Boss babe, BABY!"

Date: 2022-10-05 07:11 pm (UTC)
silverusagi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverusagi
I really should watch LBD again...

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