osprey_archer: (books)
[personal profile] osprey_archer
In my previous post, Lyra and Will cut a doorway out of the land of the dead so the dead can rejoin the living world and joyfully dissolve. They also accidentally killed God. Has Lyra fulfilled the prophecy that the fate of the entire multiverse hinges upon her actions?

Nope! The actual fulfillment of the prophecy comes when… drumroll please… Lyra and Will fall in love!

I cannot express how much I hated this development as a child. Not only did I generally hate romance in books, but I had pegged Pullman in my mind as “one of the good ones,” an author of complex and interesting children’s books that did NOT involve romance. So I felt incredibly betrayed when Will and Lyra not only fell in love, but this romance with the central linchpin the story.

Since I knew it was coming this time, I couldn’t feel betrayed by it in the same way, but I still think it’s just silly that this is the fulfillment of the prophecy. Whatever you may think theologically about letting the dead out of the land of the dead or killing God, you have to admit that these are both momentous and prophecy-worthy actions. A couple of pubertal kids falling in love? This is happening in five thousand middle schools as I type. Why should it have gigantic multiversal consequences when Will and Lyra do it?

Pullman offers no explanation. I think we’re just supposed to accept that it’s so because Lyra is the most special girl in the world, and listen. I agree that Lyra is the most special girl in the world. It makes total sense to me that character after character becomes willing to die for her within about fifteen minutes of their first meeting. [personal profile] littlerhymes and I started to call this “getting Lyra-brained” because it happens so often, and I too am completely Lyra-brained.

But I am not so very Lyra-brained that it makes sense to me that Lyra falling in love would have cosmic consequences not just for her own world but for the entire multiverse, especially given that, let’s face it, Will is not the most special boy in the world. Pullman can tell me as many times as he wants that Will is such a fierce warrior that Serafina Pekkala can’t meet his daemon’s eyes, but at the end of the day, Will is just some guy. Sorry Will. It’s not his fault that he’s boring, but he is in fact just boring.

However, even though I hated Will and Lyra getting together, I also hated that they get torn apart more or less immediately thereafter. It turns out that gateways between worlds drain the Dust out of worlds (Dust, by the way, turns out to be stuff of conscious thought, and we’re going to return to this in a final post), and because the gateway out of the land of the dead has to remain open, it’s impossible to keep a doorway open for Will and Lyra to visit each other. And also they can’t decide to live together in just one world because if you live outside of your own world, you sicken and die in about ten years. Sorry! Those are the rules!

If Pullman had established these rules earlier, then okay MAYBE, but he basically pulls them out of his ass in this book to ensure this tragic end, especially the bit about “there can only be one doorway.” Really? Really? There isn’t enough Dust in the whole multiverse to keep two doors open? You couldn’t keep a second doorway open for the boy and the girl who LITERALLY SAVED THE MULTIVERSE?

Also, for a series that is about rebelling against Authority, the characters are awfully quick to buckle down and renounce happiness when an authority figure tells them to do so. Will and Lyra, have you considered saying “Fuck you” to Xaphania when she tells you a second door is out of the question?

Date: 2025-10-20 06:16 pm (UTC)
sovay: (Rotwang)
From: [personal profile] sovay
However, even though I hated Will and Lyra getting together, I also hated that they get torn apart more or less immediately thereafter.

I had pretty much emotionally checked out on the book by this point and still hated this final authorial fiat; it seemed unnecessarily arbitrary, high-handed, and cruel for, again, a series that was supposed to be about breaking down all of those things.

Date: 2025-10-21 12:37 am (UTC)
rachelmanija: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rachelmanija
It gets even worse if you read the sequel books, which seem to be setting Lyra up for a truly gross relationship.

Date: 2025-10-21 02:29 am (UTC)
sovay: (Sovay: David Owen)
From: [personal profile] sovay
It gets even worse if you read the sequel books, which seem to be setting Lyra up for a truly gross relationship.

I avoided the sequel books!

(I did read Lyra's Oxford (2003), but I remember nothing in that one about a romance.)
Edited Date: 2025-10-21 02:31 am (UTC)

Date: 2025-10-21 02:34 am (UTC)
rachelmanija: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rachelmanija
A wise choice. (I meant the novel-length ones.)

Date: 2025-10-21 05:13 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Did you read Serpentine? I just found out about that one. The audiobook is by Olivia Colman!

Date: 2025-10-21 07:46 pm (UTC)
sovay: (Rotwang)
From: [personal profile] sovay
Unfortunately for Pullman, this separation doesn't feel like an inevitable tragedy, but like arbitrary authorial string-pulling to get to the ending he wants.

The last-minute ass-pull really does it no favors, but it would still have been no Casablanca.

Date: 2025-10-20 11:16 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: (Aquaman is sad)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
And also they can’t decide to live together in just one world because if you live outside of your own world, you sicken and die in about ten years. Sorry! Those are the rules!

If Pullman had established these rules earlier, then okay MAYBE, but he basically pulls them out of his ass in this book to ensure this tragic end


What a dick move.

Also, for a series that is about rebelling against Authority, the characters are awfully quick to buckle down and renounce happiness when an authority figure tells them to do so. Will and Lyra, have you considered saying “Fuck you” to Xaphania when she tells you a second door is out of the question? BUT SERIOUSLY. SERIOUSLY

This seems like another case of it's-wrong-when-others-do-it-but-right-when-I-do-it, the "it," in this case being establishing rules that aren't to be questioned.

Date: 2025-10-20 11:21 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: (Aquaman is sad)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
Also it is too, too hilarious that the prophecy is about Lyra falling in love. WHYYYYYYYY? WHO CAAAAARES. You can't tell me that Pullman really cares! Come on! He has all this other stuff going on and he's going to make THAT be the big thing?

And yeah, okay, most important special girl ... it still doesn't make sense that her falling in love with someone has this reverberating consequence for the multiverse. How does that manifest? They're not even going to get to live together! Is it because it signifies that the Most Important Girl can do the Most Important Emotion? ... like that doesn't seem like a particularly Pullman-ian rationale?

I know, I know: you already said no rationale is given. But I just can't help wondering what was going on in Pullman's head.

Date: 2025-10-21 01:34 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: (God)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
Huh, okay, I get it. Again, he seems to be reacting against a kind of pop-culture mediated understanding of what the Adam and Eve story is saying. I mean there's plenty not to like in a more theologically sound understanding, but the thing that dooms humanity isn't Eve tempting Adam with love or whatever but Eve tempting Adam with knowledge of good and evil. So if Pullman wants to do an anti-Adam and Eve, it should be that their knowledge and understanding are what saves the multiverse... not them falling in love.

I mean, they've been working together all this time--why isn't THAT what saves the multiverse? Sorry, I feel like I'm just stuck. And I realize you don't have secret knowledge of Pullman's brain. It's jussssst. If you're going to be anti the Adam and Eve story, it feels to me more pointful to be anti the denying of knowledge of good and evil--i.e. FOR sharing the knowledge of good and evil. And not all... love saves the multiverse. I can imagine a story about love saving the multiverse! But it just feels like these books haven't been leading to that as a conclusion.

Date: 2025-10-21 01:53 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: (nevermore)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
It doesn't work for me intellectually, but also, from my dipping into the books, and moreso from what you've written about the books, I just don't feel like he's supported that conclusion with his storytelling. The story hasn't been (or maybe it has but you glossed over it and I didn't notice in my dipping-in) about the transformative power of carnal love and sexual and romantic commitment. (Or Maybe it sort of has? Lord Asriel and what's-her-name, the mother figure with the golden lion tamarin monkey daemon? But those characters were SO UNAPPEALING! But maybe we're meant to find them awful and attractive at the same time?)

Date: 2025-10-21 02:15 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
The story hasn't been (or maybe it has but you glossed over it and I didn't notice in my dipping-in) about the transformative power of carnal love and sexual and romantic commitment.

From what I remember, it comes to the fore near the end, where Lyra finds herself sexually/romantically reacting to Will and there's even something like an intellectual description of an orgasm (which got cut from the US books iirc) -- aha, found it. These two sites compare what was taken out

https://booksandbigideas.tumblr.com/post/136402662182/censorship-in-the-amber-spyglass

https://bridgetothestars.net/index.php?p=FAQ#3

Even though the US version is a lot tamer, I think the intent is there, and Mary talking about her own awakening does make it clear enough, I think. It just reads as incredibly unnatural and tacked-on, to me.

Date: 2025-10-21 04:47 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
OTOH after reading some more about what Dust apparently is, you seem to be right in bringing up the knowledge of good and evil and "mature consciousness" and how that is misinterpreted as original sin -- and surprise, animals AND CHILDREN don't have it! But I am also now even more confused and annoyed by Pullman, woe.

Date: 2025-10-21 05:22 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: (Aquaman is sad)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
woe

--ayup, that's my general feeling re: Pullman!

Date: 2025-10-21 05:02 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Maybe it seems less abrupt if you find his not-theology convincing? LOL. But I'm not convinced he himself understands Dust, much less presented it clearly affecting the plot, and he came up with it!

Date: 2025-10-21 05:25 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: (Aquaman is sad)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
As [personal profile] kore says, woe.

... My slow-burn anger about the bears is just growing and growing.

Date: 2025-10-21 02:06 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
a reverse of Adam and Eve, where Eve tempts Adam and instead of dooming humanity it actually saves the whole multiverse. And I think somehow this echo of Adam and Eve in itself is supposed to explain why Lyra and Will falling in love saves the multiverse

YES, you hit the nail on the head. And we're supposed to see their mutual sacrifice as noble and necessary, rather than seeming completely arbitrary and rather tacked-on.

Date: 2025-10-21 12:37 am (UTC)
rachelmanija: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rachelmanija
Was that why Lyra was the New Eve? Because she fell in love with a boy?

Date: 2025-10-21 03:16 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Will is the most I'm Just Ken guy of all I'm Just Ken guys. By the end of the trilogy I hated him because he was so bland and boring.

The only explanation I got for Lyra and Will falling in love is that Pullman thinks he's rewriting Paradise Lost for the better (spoiler: no, Philip, you are not). IDEFK what a supposedly pro-reality pro-world anti-religion writer is doing wrenching them apart like five minutes later. Even Adam and Eve still had each other after they were exiled.

Date: 2025-10-21 01:46 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Yeah, I can't do it now because of lack of spoons due to an ear infection, but I'd say HDM is way more in conversation with Paradise Lost than Narnia (although obviously Lewis was very influenced by Milton, so it overlaps).

Date: 2025-10-21 03:19 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
As a contrarian note, lol, I loved the first sequel book, enjoyed the second and am looking forward to the third. I think La Belle Sauvage has some of his best writing, stylistically.

Date: 2025-10-21 02:01 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Ha, there are several of us! Several!

I did read HDM, but as an adult (and a Narnia fan, lol) so maybe that had something to do with it? I mean, my reaction to daemons was sort of like with the Sorting Hat: cute idea, not that deep. I've reread the first book but I think I reread Amber Spyglass maybe once. I was such a Lyra stan the second and third books fell really flat for me.

If you did want to try the sequels In Your Copious Free Time I'd suggest the first one -- the second one is really divisive about Lyra and I think the vast majority of Lyra stans hate it (I don't really know why I didn't -- I think I was just pathetically happy to see her again? lol). La Belle Sauvage is a prequel and can be read as a standalone even though Lyra's in it (she's an infant) so that's the one I'd recommend checking out. I liked the two teen main characters (boy and a girl) very much.
Edited (posted early wtf) Date: 2025-10-21 02:03 pm (UTC)

Date: 2025-10-21 05:04 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
It's coming out very soon! He better give me some kind of HEA for Pan and Lyra, I don't much care about anyone else.

Date: 2025-10-21 05:11 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
I forgot to add, re the second book -- without going too deep into spoilers, it's like twenty years later and Lyra is a very disaffected, basically depressed, young student, and a large part of the book kind of reads like a 19th-century novel in that she is deeply affected by two philosophical books and so is everyone else in the story. It's kind of very Magic Mountain-y that way and I can see why modern readers might bounce right off that. (It's not done in a clear or convincing way, either.) I tend to overidentify with depressed student heroines (see also, Katabasis) so I'm thinking that influenced my reaction to older sadder Lyra. But in truth it's been a while since I reread it! I don't tend to read Pullman that much anymore, I don't know why. (Lewis's books feel much more vivid and memorable....warmer somehow.)

Date: 2025-10-21 10:16 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
There is a whooole lot of philosophizing about the philosophical books.

Date: 2025-10-21 03:56 pm (UTC)
regshoe: (Argh!)
From: [personal profile] regshoe
I cannot express how much I hated this development as a child. Not only did I generally hate romance in books, but I had pegged Pullman in my mind as “one of the good ones,” an author of complex and interesting children’s books that did NOT involve romance. So I felt incredibly betrayed when Will and Lyra not only fell in love, but this romance with the central linchpin the story.

It's been a long time since I read these books and I don't remember a huge amount about them, but I certainly do remember reacting in pretty much exactly this way to the ending. Strong agreement!

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