Black Widow

[osprey_archer]

I have seen Black Widow! Which I enjoyed very much, which is a refreshing thing to say about an MCU film! It was lively and well-paced and funny in a way that (mostly) didn’t undercut the more serious emotional beats. I did roll my eyes a little at the fact that we now have yet ANOTHER form of MCU mind control fueling yet ANOTHER secret world-controlling conspiracy, but at this point this kind of thing is practically the price of admission, and anyway I really think Natasha has a point when she’s taunting Dreykov about the mismatch between his megalomania and his actual influence. If his new Red Room is SO secret that Natasha didn’t realize it existed for years, the only real explanation is that it has very little genuine power.

My favorite character was Yelena (no surprise; Florence Pugh is a powerhouse), who is a wonderful combination of tough and vulnerable. I love the scene where she’s bragging to Natasha about her amazing new utility vest with all the pockets, and she’s terribly proud of it and also transparently, childishly, adorably intent on making Natasha praise it and maybe even admit that she envies it. That’s such a sibling mood.

(The film did pretty much squelch my nascent Natasha/Yelena fic ideas, though, by going so hard on the family angle. It turns out I’m totally cool with shipping characters who grew up together in Assassin Boarding Schools, but if they were actually raised for three years in a suburban home in the Midwest starting when the younger one was about three, that’s just a little too incestuous to me.)

I did love seeing Natasha, who has always longed for a family, realize that actually she has two, even if the film ends up taking a fairly soft-focus view of the actual difficulty of reuniting with a family that was actually a spy front that shattered instantly the moment the spy mission was over. I wish the film let Natasha’s father figure actually apologize to her, instead of using his attempt at an apology as a gag: he’s giving this heartfelt speech over comms that don’t actually exist, so Natasha doesn’t hear any of it. Yes, that’s hilarious, but I wish he actually did say that to her (or something like it) once they meet up again.

And it did annoy me that the film ends with a post-credit scene of Yelena standing over Natasha’s grave (just to remind us ONCE AGAIN that Natasha didn’t even get a film till she was dead dead dead) - and the scene isn’t even allowed to focus on Yelena’s grief. No, it’s got to be an opportunity for some rando to recruit Yelena as an assassin and tease the next MCU product. Because of course.

Now that I read over this review, it’s actually pretty mixed, isn’t it? Trending toward negative, even. I could push it a lot harder that direction if I complained some more about how the MCU uses its various mind-control plots to avoid ever looking directly at a whole bunch of ethical questions, and in doing so flattens out a lot of its characters, but I already ranted about this when Civil War did trigger-word mind control with Bucky and the basic problem remains the same so… honestly, why bother. Why do I bother with the MCU anymore? I know going in just how it’s going to frustrate me, and this movie was a pleasant surprise because it only frustrated me in the ways I expected rather than screwing up in new and exciting directions.

But for all these complaints, I did love that we FINALLY got a Natasha movie, and that it was a solidly entertaining movie and we got to see Natasha with her own people, and although it’s so annoying that we didn’t get it till after Endgame - at the same time, I’m glad that this is the last way we’ll see her, at the center of her own story, and that we do finally get to see someone grieve for her.

Comments

[kore]

We FINALLY got a Natasha movie and I LOVED it. Yelena! Melina! Antonia! So many great scenes! ....I wasn't super crazy about the mind control either (and the floating red mist, what) but mostly didn't care because BLACK WIDOW MOVIE.

And it did annoy me that the film ends with a post-credit scene of Yelena standing over Natasha’s grave (just to remind us ONCE AGAIN that Natasha didn’t even get a film till she was dead dead dead) - and the scene isn’t even allowed to focus on Yelena’s grief. No, it’s got to be an opportunity for some rando to recruit Yelena as an assassin and tease the next MCU product. Because of course.

That was the one part of the movie I really didn't like. I don't like the not-Fury character, I don't like that actress, I really didn't like Yelena was apparently working for her, &c &c. But my "I ignore your canon and substitute my own" muscles are strong, I can ignore one little post-credits scene! lol.

I’m glad that this is the last way we’ll see her, at the center of her own story, and that we do finally get to see someone grieve for her.

I was surprised at how many times I got outright teary, but a big one was when Nat got in the quinjet and we heard the Avengers theme, and then cut back down to the fireflies, like little glowing souls. That was a lovely goodbye.

[osprey_archer]

I didn't realize till the MCU that I found mind control so completely boring, because it ends up removing questions of ethics/agency/culpability that these stories might otherwise have to face... although honestly, they probably wouldn't, given that they had Natasha blow up *an entire five-story building* and presented it as if there was a single casualty (Antonia) who didn't even actually die. But, again, the fact that no one in the MCU would understand an ethic if it bit them is just part of the price of admission at this point.

Back with TFATWS was coming out, and the not-Fury character showed up, I remember reading articles that were all, "We were supposed to meet this character first in Black Widow!" And now that I've seen Black Widow, I can say that the meeting in that movie is exactly as WTF as the one in TFATWS, so it would not have made her appearance there any less out of left field.

...Also my headcanon is that Yelena will find a way to save Natasha from the Soul Stone, and Natasha will decide that she has done enough superheroing for her life and settle down to plant a garden around her dacha and possibly adopt an angry child assassin.

[kore]

it ends up removing questions of ethics/agency/culpability that these stories might otherwise have to face... although honestly, they probably wouldn't

Yeah, and for Nat and Bucky and other "brainwashed" sorta-villains, it creates the problem that they physically did do all these terrible things, but mentally they're not responsible, so how exactly do they atone for it? "I killed your son" or even "I was the Winter Soldier" are not really true. Yelena was apparently even more brainwashed, so hopefully they aren't going to make her dive off a cliff to save everybody.

And now that I've seen Black Widow, I can say that the meeting in that movie is exactly as WTF as the one in TFATWS, so it would not have made her appearance there any less out of left field.

SHE'S SO ANNOYING. So smirky and weird. Altho because of the rescheduling, I think she's the second character who first appears in a show and then in the movies -- Jarvis in Endgame is the only other one, right? But yeah, I thought we'd get another clue to what she's doing! Nope, she didn't even have a blank business card.

...Also my headcanon is that Yelena will find a way to save Natasha from the Soul Stone, and Natasha will decide that she has done enough superheroing for her life and settle down to plant a garden around her dacha and possibly adopt an angry child assassin.

YES
YES
HOW ABOUT, YELENA AND NEBULA BECOME SUPER GRUDGING FRIENDS AND SPARRING PARTNERS AND THEY GO OFF ON A QUEST TO RESCUE THEIR SESTRAS
maybe Thor helps them because Thanos killed his sibling too, he can something something mystical rites that help them get to the Soul realm? Or Carol takes them off to Vormir
.....okay, there's a reason why I never really plot anything

[osprey_archer]

I remember reading a bunch of TFATWS takes that were basically mad that the show had Bucky doing any kind of atonement at all, because he's not at fault. And I feel that really misses the whole point of atonement/apology, which is often about trying to repair harm that has occurred, even if that harm was entirely accidental and 100% out of anyone's control. If you run over someone's dog, you don't get out of the car screaming "I didn't mean to do it, so I don't have to apologize to you!", you know?

Fandom in general is really fucked up about the intersection between intention and culpability, anyway. If it's Bucky Barnes murdering a hotel full of people, the fact that he didn't MEAN to absolves him of all guilt, whereas if it's an actual human being on the internet drawing fanart that someone deems problematic, they will never be forgiven EVER and their intentions are (a) irrelevant and (b) obviously bad no matter what they say.

Anyway, back to the mind control: I also thought it didn't really make sense that the instant the mind-control-ending gas hits them, all the Widows instantly defect. So mind control is all powerful, and yet weaker than Fox News?

[anna_wing]

Yes. Also about the distinction between culpability and responsibility. Entire legal systems exist to deal with these problems.

[staranise]

Yeah, the biggest disconnect for me was that the moment the mind control wore off, everyone hated Drakov and the Red Room and wanted to be free. It's not that easy! Deprogramming and deradicalizing is a hard process.

It's also why I thought the "parents" came off as way too benign. They lie and manipulate for a living and have a lot of ego invested in thinking of themselves as good people--it feels like a real reach, to me, that they immediately agreed with and obeyed Nat, instead of trying to shake her moral certainty or put her in her place.

[asakiyume]

I do think "only going wrong/only being disappointing in the ways I expect" is a real thing, and I'm glad for your sake (not really being a sojourner in the MCU myself) that finally Natasha has a movie. The last thing you say, about someone mourning her, made me emotional even when I don't really know her!

[osprey_archer]

I have not actually watched Endgame, but I have heard from multiple enraged fans that the ending of that movie is a gigantic, hagiographic funeral for Tony Stark, during which Natasha (who ALSO died to save the world in that movie) gets nary a mention. In fact, the movie basically forgets about her the moment she dies. (Which, now that I think about it, totally undermines Natasha's whole "I have two families" thing in this movie: she may think of the Avengers as one of her families, but they sure don't seem to return the favor.)

But Yelena cares and Yelena mourns for her and it was great to say that.

[kore]

I have not actually watched Endgame,

SUCH A GOOD LIFE CHOICE

but I have heard from multiple enraged fans that the ending of that movie is a gigantic, hagiographic funeral for Tony Stark, during which Natasha (who ALSO died to save the world in that movie) gets nary a mention. In fact, the movie basically forgets about her the moment she dies

YUP

In fact in that great big "girl power" moment where Wanda and Okoye and Carol and all the women team up, Nat's not there, and none of them say anything or even seem to notice. Ditto when Steve finally has his big "Avengers assemble" moment. It's like she just vanished. There's that one scene where Tony asks "Did she have any family even?" and Steve goes "Yeah. US" and Bruce throws a bench, but it's kind of eerie.

But Yelena cares and Yelena mourns for her and it was great to say that.

I was reminded of that cut line in Wandavision where Wanda goes off on the officials and says if you're Tony Stark, you get a big funeral, but with Natasha there's nothing, and she can't even bury Vision's body because they're keeping it from her. I loved all the trinkets and mementos, too, suggesting other people remember and visit her.

[osprey_archer]

Oh my God! How could they cut that from Wandavision? But also of course they cut that from Wandavision, because the viewers might go "Hey! Wanda's got a point! Why IS Tony the only one who got a proper funeral?" and of course it's because billionaire Tony Stark is the producers' self-insert fantasy.