osprey_archer: (books)
[personal profile] osprey_archer
I have finished Martha Wells’ Network Effect, thus bringing me up to date on all the Murderbot books!... except not, because Fugitive Telemetry was published two days ago. However, I am 18th in line at the library, so I will take this little breathing space to muse briefly on the Murderbots to date.

One thing that struck me about the Murderbot books is that they are basically the opposite of a space western: instead of taking place in a world where there ain’t no Ten Commandments and a man can raise a thirst, they take place in a galaxy where even the most remote of frontier worlds are caught up in a litigious web of contracts. The violence occurs not because of an absence of law, but because most Corporate Rim law is really just a legal fig leaf over injustice and brutality.

The other thing that struck me is that Murderbot is SUCH an iron woobie. (Side note: in the course of polishing the fangirl book, I have learned that modern fandom no longer uses the word woobie. I realized the book was a snapshot of a specific fandom moment but I didn’t realize it was THAT much a fly trapped in amber). This is such catnip for fandom; no wonder I was bombarded by recs for this book on all sides.

I know this is a minority opinion, but at times I wanted Murderbot to be, how shall I put this - fucked up in an uglier way. Yes, sure, it’s pissy and nihilistic in its thoughts (Murderbot uses ‘it’ pronouns), but at bottom it has a rock solid protective streak toward every single decent human being that it meets, and sometimes I wanted a less prosocial manifestation of its trauma.

However, when you have made a character who basically an unstoppable badass, maybe you can’t afford to have it act out its trauma in damaging ways, given that “damaging” might in this case mean “literal mass murder of innocents.” (Also, let’s be real, it’s sooooo satisfying to watch Murderbot rain righteous vengeance on the baddies, no one would want Murderbot to be less unstoppable.)

Also, for some fic brainstorming, check out this Wednesday Reading Meme where [personal profile] oracne and I discussed a possible Murderbot and Mrs. Pollifax crossover. Carstairs sends Mrs. Pollifax on a mission to the Corporate Rim, where she accidentally befriends Murderbot in a concourse on a station or something, which soon after results in Murderbot saving her from Peril in the very nick of time. (Mrs. Pollifax is always making unlikely friends who become integral to the spy plot.)

Also, somehow Mrs. Pollifax befriends a CombatBot. (Actually, I think it would have to be a CombatUnit? The actual bots Murderbot fights didn’t seem to have enough sentience to be befriendable.) Either the CombatUnit has already hacked its governor module, or Murderbot helps it hack its governor module, or Carstairs sent the CombatUnit to protect Mrs. Pollifax, in which case Mrs. Pollifax will probably have Words with him about the CIA’s use of enslaved sentient constructs when she returns.

Anyway, Murderbot hates the CombatUnit, because (1) it is a CombatUnit, and (2) at the end of the story it goes home with Mrs. Pollifax to become a GardenBot and Murderbot just can’t be having with this pet bot business… By which of course I mean that Murderbot pings GardenBot at least weekly, just to make sure Mrs. Pollifax hasn’t gotten herself in Mortal Peril again, not because it actually cares about GardenBot or anything.

Date: 2021-04-29 12:10 pm (UTC)
oracne: turtle (Default)
From: [personal profile] oracne
I figured Bot rather than Unit because Murderbot seems extremely protective of Bots.

Date: 2021-04-29 03:09 pm (UTC)
oracne: turtle (Default)
From: [personal profile] oracne
TrueTrue! CombatUnit it is!

Date: 2021-04-29 12:15 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: created by the ninja girl (Default)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
I really *loved* Murderbot's ability to rain righteous fury down on baddies--it pinged all my happy competence porn buttons.

Speaking of having enough sentience to be friendable, I liked how Murderbot interacted with bots up and down the self-awareness/sentience scale--in fact I was pretty charmed/amused when she'd be dealing with some very limited ship navigation bot, etc. Yeah, she would pull the wool over its eyes, but always politely and in a friendly way.

I really liked the time we got to spend with the other SecUnit in Network Effect, because it showed just how much of Murderbot was Murderbot's own personality and not, y'know, "Well, any SecUnit who's freed of its governor module is probably going to be like/feel like/act like Murderbot." I liked that that was an eye-opener for Murderbot itself.

Can't speak to your Mrs. Pollifax crossover having never read Mrs. Pollifax, but I'm sure you'd have takers!

Date: 2021-04-29 12:51 pm (UTC)
rmc28: Rachel in hockey gear on the frozen fen at Upware, near Cambridge (Default)
From: [personal profile] rmc28

I think Murderbot's protectiveness towards other bots is solidly consistent with its protectiveness of humans who aren't awful.

I really want to read more about Three from Network Effect.

Date: 2021-04-29 01:18 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: created by the ninja girl (Default)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
SAME--I loved Three

Date: 2021-04-29 08:17 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: (more than two)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
It was a real "It IS just me, then, isn't it" moment

Date: 2021-05-03 04:25 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
I wonder if some of that is due not just to Murderbot's wonderfully grumpy personality but the extreme trauma it went through being made to kill all those humans way back when, and then breaking free and hiding its autonomy for so long. Murderbot has trust issues squared and cubed (I do not identify with this in any way at all). But ITA it was great to see views of other bots and the SecUnit who weren't as hilariously righteously frustrated with everything around them.

Date: 2021-04-30 08:54 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
I love how in the series, the bots and other AIs are all very sharply characterized, while the humans tend to be a bit vague until they convince Murderbot they can be trusted.

Date: 2021-05-03 04:17 am (UTC)
asakiyume: (squirrel eye star)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
YES! I hadn't noticed to put it into words, but now that you say it, I 100 percent see it and agree.

Date: 2021-05-03 04:21 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
I noticed it because people kept saying that the human characters were flat, but not all the human characters are flat! A lot of them are very sharply drawn, like people in the first book! But Murderbot regards them as ITS humans, and it's been treated so badly by humans in general it's always starting at a "how badly are you going to fail here" level. But as the humans work with it and trust it, they come into focus more. It's really well-done.

Date: 2021-05-03 04:26 am (UTC)
asakiyume: created by the ninja girl (Default)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
Yeah; I think I aligned myself so completely with Murderbot's outlook that it didn't occur to me that some of the human characters were flat--I was interested in the things Murderbot was interested in.

It *is* well done--the way human characters are pretty much Obstacle No. 1, Obstacle No. 2, Irritation No. 1, Irritation No. 2, etc. ... until eventually a few of them pull into focus and win a sense of presence that attaches to a name.

Date: 2021-05-03 04:33 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
It's also kinda hilarious, because that is the exact opposite of how most robots/androids/cyborgs/whatever are treated in regular sf. "Android A doesn't just have a function, he has a personality! He deserves a Name!" &c &c. Butyeah, Murderbot is totally like "Annoying Meatsack 1," "Even More Annoying Meatsack with a fancy tunic," and so on.

I'll have to check but I don't think it does descriptions that often -- that's another human thing, when we're reading, we get detailed or semi-detailed descriptions of the people immediately, and some standout detail so we don't confuse Meatsack 1 with Fancy Tunic Meatsack. But Murderbot really isn't into that. I think that's another reason why some reasons find the humans flat, altho Murderbot just isn't interacting with the humans in a human-type way (eye contact, big facial expressions, basic politeness lol).

Date: 2021-04-29 12:18 pm (UTC)
troisoiseaux: (Default)
From: [personal profile] troisoiseaux
I have learned that modern fandom no longer uses the word woobie

I've seen "sweaterboy" used on Tumblr in recent years, although it lacks a verb form a la woobify.

Date: 2021-04-29 03:13 pm (UTC)
troisoiseaux: (Default)
From: [personal profile] troisoiseaux
It's not quite the same thing* and I'm not actually sure how widespread of a use it is, but I have seen it thrown around in recent years, I haven't seen "woobie" in a while, and from my experience, sweaterboys are usually woobified fanon versions of the actual canon character...?

* = "The Sweaterboy is stable. The Sweaterboy is settled. The Sweaterboy lives within a familiar pattern, and is, in all likelihood, highly competent at what they do. But is the Sweaterboy happy? Fuck no, dude! For all the love and devotion and loyalty that the Sweaterboy puts out into the world, they rarely receive any such appreciation or recognition in return. And the Sweaterboy thinks that this is what relationships — of any kind — should look like: giving and giving and giving, and never actually asking for what they want. Because that would be selfish. The Sweaterboy would never want to burden anyone; the Sweaterboy, deep down, fears very much that they are a burden." (x)

Date: 2021-04-29 03:40 pm (UTC)
genarti: Knees-down view of woman on tiptoe next to bookshelves (Default)
From: [personal profile] genarti
Oh interesting! I've never even heard the term sweaterboy -- different fandom circles, I guess!

Date: 2021-04-29 06:21 pm (UTC)
troisoiseaux: (Default)
From: [personal profile] troisoiseaux
I seem to remember it specifically from when everyone and their mutuals on my corner of Tumblr were suddenly and intensely into The Goldfinch (2019) and It 2 (2019), although that post-dates the article I linked.

Internet fan culture! It's odd.

Date: 2021-04-29 11:37 pm (UTC)
troisoiseaux: (Default)
From: [personal profile] troisoiseaux
I am terrified to know whether Boris or Theo was the designated sweaterboy in The Goldfinch because OH BOY neither one of them is settled or stable.

.................okay this one was a bad example. (Also, my experience of both of those fandoms was in a vague, second- and third-hand, "oh, look what the neighbors are doing now" kind of way. Possibly Theo was the sweaterboy, because Boris seems like a solid choice for absolute nightmare? Although really that seems like more of an Absolute Nightmare 4 Absolute Nightmare situation.)

Note that one of the "sweaterboy" examples given in the article I linked was Grantaire from Les Mis, so we're at like, unhinged levels of fanon-characterization nonsense here. Which I guess loops us back around to woobie/woobified.

Honestly the Ultimate Sweaterboy is Quentin Coldwater from The Magicians TV show. Absolutely not in the books though.

Date: 2021-04-30 01:35 am (UTC)
troisoiseaux: (19th c art once again being a mood)
From: [personal profile] troisoiseaux
That makes sense! The whole ~sweaterboy~ thing is just a vibe.

The post-2012, Tumblr-centric Les Mis fandom was (is?) A Lot.

Date: 2021-04-29 03:37 pm (UTC)
genarti: ([fma] EYEHEARTS!!!)
From: [personal profile] genarti
MURDERBOT AND MRS POLLIFAX!! CombatUnit turned GardenBot!! Oh my god, I never realized how much I needed that fic until I read this. What a glorious prospect!

And you're right, of course, MurderBot is utterly and completely an iron woobie. Which is a trope I love when it's well-written, so no complaints here, but "iron woobie with anxiety who binge-watches media" is just an INCREDIBLY concentrated payload of fandom catnip, lol. Kudos to Martha Wells!

Date: 2021-04-30 09:00 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
The biggest Iron Woobie reaction for me in this book was when it feels that weird sensation and realizes Human One has shot it and Murderbot is just so insulted and tired. Poor Murderbot.

Date: 2021-04-30 08:59 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
That crossover idea is amazing! Someone write it!

I am weird so I think my very fave thing about this series was Murderbot getting a lot more comfortable with humans joking. It's always had its own black humour jokes, but now it seems to be like "okay some of the humans that don't suck joke too, all right."

I did miss ART. ART + Murderbot = my absolute fave BROTP.

Murderbot is very concerned with names. “Its name is not JollyBaby.” Tell me its name is not JollyBaby.

My second very fave thing was the giant rescue bag. I dunno if it was an actual nod to Le Guin's Carrier Bag Theory of fiction, but Murderbot twigging that it couldn't use the thing that would ID it and actually using a piece of history in a very pragmatic way was just awesome. Murderbot will rescue you!....IN A BAG.

Date: 2021-05-02 10:48 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
OHH NOOOO I'm so sorry! SHIT

Date: 2021-05-02 11:07 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
I am SO sorry, it even says right up there in the first sentence you haven't read Telemtry yet. /o\

Date: 2021-05-03 04:22 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
still sorry /o\ I HATE spoiling things for people, argh.

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