Daredevil

[osprey_archer]

I've been trying to watch Daredevil - I've made it to episode 3 - but I'm having trouble getting into it. There are, IMO, two kinds of dark and gritty, and Daredevil is the kind I don't like, where the show takes place in eternal night and endless rainfall, with streetlamps that cast dramatic shadows everywhere -

Okay, actually, it's not the aesthetic itself that bothers me. It's very stylish, and classic film noir uses it to great effect - I watched Double Indemnity a few months ago and it blew me away. But in modern work I find that it tends to accompany a moral universe where, say, the hero can torture a guy on a roof and then toss him into a dumpster six stories down and somehow remain the hero. Bad guys deserve to be crippled for life without even the protection of due process, so it's okay! Or something like that.

Just once, I would like to see a show where the heroes torture the hell out of someone and then it turns out that they got the wrong guy. Their informant sent them after Joe Schmoe because a property line dispute left him with a petty grudge and he wants Mr. Schmoe out of the way. That would be gritty and realistic.

Comments

[lycoris.livejournal.com]

Although it doesn't contain torture, there is an Inspector Morse episode where he goes off half-cocked going "This guy is the killer, I KNOW IT BECAUSE REASONS" and does all sorts of illegal things. And the guy isn't the killer, he's totally innocent. It's very uncomfortable viewing but I really like that it exists because sometimes stuff like this happens. I get frustrated with superhero and cop-drama where it's never acknowledged that going by your "gut" can really, really lead you to cock up sometimes.

I haven't watched Daredevil yet. I can't decide if I'm going to or not. It sounds interesting ... but also off-putting.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

Yes! Like that! I'm sure the reason shows don't do this more often is because it is uncomfortable viewing (and it would be even worse in a show where the heroes regular use torture to get information - which is of course why I want it!), but supposedly dark and gritty work that never makes viewers uncomfortable is cheating somehow, IMO.

I'm starting to think that the MCU is just not well suited to television. The serial format really highlights the moral problems with superheroes that can be ignored in a movie. This would be an asset if they used it to explore those problems, but they don't even seem quite sure what the problems are, let alone capable of exploring them.

[asakiyume.livejournal.com]

it tends to accompany a moral universe where, say, the hero can torture a guy on a roof and then toss him into a dumpster six stories down and somehow remain the hero.

This was the problem I had when my dad showed me an episode of Person of Interest.

I really hate the normalizing of torture.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

So do I.

Barring an episode where the heroes realize their victim was actually completely innocent, I'd also settle for an episode where the torture just doesn't work. The victim says everything that comes into their head to make it stop, truth and lies all mixed up, and the "heroes" spend the next three episodes chasing a conspiracy that doesn't exist.

Meanwhile, the villains they were supposed to stop exit stage right.

[asakiyume.livejournal.com]

Yes. I'd like the heroes to say, "If we hadn't beaten out of that suspect exactly what we led him to believe we wanted to hear, then we might have noticed what the villains were really up to. Instead, we went on a wild goose chase of our own invention, and the villains accomplished their goal. Boy, we suck."

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

Yes! Yes this! Sadly they would probably need to spell it out exactly that baldly, too, to make sure the viewers got the point.

[artemis_wandering]

I was really bored with the first half of Daredevil. It wasn't too gritty, just DULL, even knowing that the acting and production quality was top notch. And then I hit ep 8 and fell in love...with Fisk.Sso, try making it to that ep at least? I still don't care about Murdock, but Fisk, Wesley, and Karen Page just get better.

Also, your last comments are excellent - I'd love such a scene, too. I mean, research shows torture doesn't work, so why does it always work for "heroes"?

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

Everyone tells me Fisk is the best part. I am not sure how I feel about falling in love with a man so evil that his minions willingly impale themselves through the eye to avoid his punishment, though.

Maybe effective torture is a protagonist power (tm)? Kind of like emerging magically unscathed from ridiculous car chases and direct hits with missiles.

[artemis_wandering]

I mean, I don't love him like I want to join his cause, but the writing and portrayal made him far more human than the comic (or 2003 movie) characterization. His subtle scariness is part of what makes him so interesting.

Ha, yeah. We just handwave these things with comics. :P

[evelyn-b.livejournal.com]

Torture is the worst way of getting information! It makes you into a torturer, and it doesn't even get you reliable information! I also hate that TV seems to be convinced that torture is an effective means of getting information. It's lazy received wisdom at best, and sometimes feels like propaganda.

I have really mixed feelings about Daredevil (having watched only two episodes). I love that it takes place not just in New York, but in this really specific neighborhood that has its own character and is tied up with Foggy and Matt's personal history, and I appreciate that they sort of try to show how much damage all this vigilantism is doing to Matt's body, even if they turn around and ignore it in time for the climactic fight-everyone-in-the-hideout-despite-your-unchecked-internal-bleeding scene. And it's a cliche and all, but I am a total and unmitigated sucker for The Sad Tale of Matt Murdock's Dad, plus I loved the whole side-plot with Foggy helping Karen stay out all night because she doesn't feel safe at home. I love drunk people being drunkenly kind to one another and causing minor nuisances all over town.

But the torture is really, really bad, and Murdock talking a nurse into helping him torture more effectively made my stomach turn before it even got to the OTT stomach-turning part. And why is everything so green?

I guess it's having the same effect on me as AoS, despite the difference in tone: I ought to be angry at its hideous implications, but I keep getting distracted from my 100% justified righteous indignation by how much I love the characters.

I don't know, maybe it'll get better? PROBABLY NOT THOUGH. :(

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

There's a definite propaganda element that skeeves me out even more. I feel like there was a sharp increase in "Yay torture!" stories after 9/11 (admittedly, I was thirteen at the time, so it's not like my acquaintance with 90s TV is all that extensive).

So far, the only character who has really caught my attention is Foggy - the nurse was getting there, but then she gave Matt torture advice and I kind of noped out on both of them at the same time. So there's not much to distract me from all the bad implications.

And if I've learned one thing from AoS, it's that Marvel shows never get better in the terrifying implications department. And this one doesn't even have science puppies!

(Seriously. Now I want an AU where Fitz and Simmons become actual puppies and spend a lot of time playing tug of war with socks and snuggling and rubbing against Skye's knees for ear skritches and this is all your fault.)

[bunn.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure about after 9/11, but I think there has definitely been an increase in such stories as the memory of WWII has receded from memory into history, and I agree, it is a disturbing trend.

[sineala.livejournal.com]

I think the thing about Daredevil that makes it even worse -- I can't remember if this is there by ep 3, sorry -- is that Matt can tell when people are lying. So this is completely reinforcing his use of torture as a useful and effective means of gathering information (because, hey, for him it's always going to work!), which, no.

Not that I didn't enjoy watching the show, because it was very well put-together, but I managed to have a lot of ethical qualms while enjoying it.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

If it's not explicitly stated by ep 3, then I think it's implied by the way Matt is listening to the guy's heartbeat as he questions him. I feel like this method of lie detection would have the same problem as real lie detector tests - is he lying, or is he stressed for other reasons? Like the fact that he's tied up on top of a roof and at the mercy of a mad vigilante?

But it's a superpower so maybe not.

[egelantier.livejournal.com]

this is not to induce you into watching dd further - mileages vary, and this is one of the shows where mileages vary hard - but the show actually deals with the whole 'good guys doing bad things' concept, and even comes close to the scene you describe. it's not ideal, and it's, at heart, still a ~gritty vigilante show, but it's not completely oblivious, too. narrative calls matt out on a LOT of his behavior, including things i didn't think they would call him on.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

I'll probably end up watching the rest of it. However, Netflix just got season two of Graceland, which is one of my favorite shows (undercover cops!!! who have so far not tortured anyone! They are always the ones being tortured), so everything else is going to be on hold for a bit while I leap headfirst into that.

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

Same here on Daredevil.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

I also hear it gets more gruesome as it goes on, and...well, it's been pretty gruesome all along. I feel that I've been getting touchier about this sort of thing as I get older.

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

Yup. Me, too.

[ghosted.livejournal.com]

Omg, I really want to see the show in your last paragraph, there.

I got halfway through Daredevil and will probably finish it eventually, but I'm not 100% sold on it and this post helps me see why.

(But Matt Murdock went to school with my A level drama teacher, which I find endlessly entertaining.)

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

Right? I want to see that show too. Season one is the heroes being awful cops/spies/lawyers whatever, the seasons following are all about the ramifications of their mistakes.