Questions on Carthak

[osprey_archer]

Reading Emperor Mage. I want to visit Lindhall Reed's laboratory SO BADLY. ALL THE LITTLE GLASS HABITATS. I WANT TO SEE THEM. Also Bonedancer.

Also I'd like to see the University library, but naturally Daine doesn't visit it; she's not a very bookish sort of person. (Most Pierce heroines aren't, it seems.) But maybe in the upcoming Numair book...

Is it ever explained why Ozorne pardoned Numair? Or why the Tortallans felt it necessary to test this pardon by taking Numair to Carthak to flaunt him under Ozorne's nose? ("Ha, ha, we have Numair and you don't!" Not a good way to start peace talks with a possessive and spiteful emperor, I would think.) He doesn't seem to be an important negotiator, and Daine doesn't need his help to heal Ozorne's birds, so what's he doing in Carthak?

***

On a completely irrelevant note: do you think the Bazhir and the Carthakis are related? Clearly it's not a close relationship - the Bazhir aren't recent Carthaki settlers - but perhaps they come from the same root stock long ago?

Admittedly my only evidence for this is that both Bazhiri and Carthaki women veil themselves, which probably tells us nothing except that Pierce finds veiling a convenient shorthand for "these people are totally backward." But it would add an interesting new dimension to Carthak's antipathy toward Tortall. Perhaps they don't like the way their Bazhiri cousins are treated.

Comments

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

I swear, the whole Tortallan delegation to Carthak is practically Worst Possible People To Send On A Diplomatic Mission To Carthak: Greatest Hits.

Um, man, now I can't remember if there's actually any canon evidence for it, but my hypothesis is that the Bazhir originally came from "Carthak" via the Roof of the World (they are canonically related to the Doi) (although I think canonically the Bazhir came "across the Inland Sea," which I guess puts a wrench in those works--could be multiple waves of migration, though, or some of the Bazhir dispersed eastward towards the Roof), possibly driven out by the ancestors of today's imperialist Carthak--the thing about Carthak is that it's a multicultural Empire that "eats her young," so I am not sure "Carthaki" is a very useful ethnic designation. (Which reminds me, I need to finish my Okha fic.) I do think that the Bazhir migration happened a very long time ago.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

Presumably the Naxens have diplomatic skills of some sort? But otherwise, yes. I know Alanna's famous, but that's not going to help if she loses her temper and stabs one of the Carthaki delegates. And Numair -

Maybe Ozorne specifically requested Numair attend in order to get his revenge on him? It would certainly be in character - maybe he figured he might as well get VENGEANCE out of the peace talks, as he had no intention of getting peace.

I can't shake the feeling that Ozorne and Numair were totally an item, and then suffered one of the most world-historically devastating break-ups ever. Not that the Numair book will go there - which is really just as well - how problematic would it be for Tortall's first and so far only canonical same-sex relationship to be Ozorne & Numair?

I know Carthaki isn't a useful ethnic designation, but there's not enough information about most of the ethnicities under Carthaki rule to even guess which ones might be related to the Bazhir. I want a book in which a character tours Carthak, so we'll finally get a map of the whole country - preferably one that shows where the countries the empire conquered used to be...

I like the idea of multiple waves of immigration. Perhaps the different waves correlate with the different attitudes that different tribes take toward the Tortallans? I bet tribes who were forced out of Carthak by imperialism have an especially dim view of the Tortallan crown.

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

I can't shake the feeling that Ozorne and Numair were totally an item, and then suffered one of the most world-historically devastating break-ups ever.

You and me and half of fandom.

but there's not enough information about most of the ethnicities under Carthaki rule to even guess which ones might be related to the Bazhir.

This is true. Possibly the group Kylaia al-Jmaa came from, judging by the names? But name consistency is not TP's strong point.

I want a book in which a character tours Carthak, so we'll finally get a map of the whole country - preferably one that shows where the countries the empire conquered used to be...

Me, too, but after the Trickster books, I'm not sure I trust Pierce to write it.

I like the idea of multiple waves of immigration. Perhaps the different waves correlate with the different attitudes that different tribes take toward the Tortallans? I bet tribes who were forced out of Carthak by imperialism have an especially dim view of the Tortallan crown.

Hmmm. That might be too simple a correlation, since the Bazhir seem to have been there a long time--a lot can shift in a few centuries (or a few thousand years), and there's clearly been enough time somewhere along the way for the Doi to dramatically diverge culturally (although I suspect they were an ancient migration, maybe totally separate from the migration to the Great Southern Desert.

I'll have to think about it more. Is it wrong that Tortall just makes me want to write worldbuidling fic?

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

You and me and half of fandom.

It's that scene in the aviary. Ozorne sounds just like a spiteful ex-lover, taunting Numair about abandoning people when he's done with them, and then making the little Numair puppet and squashing it.

I also have doubts about Pierce's ability to write a travelogue of Carthak...but I really want that map. Maybe if the heroine weren't saving the entirety of Carthak, but just dealing with local problems? Oh! Oh! She could be one of the first female Imperial officials! A mage, maybe. Possibly the daughter of an ex-slave? She wears a veil and fights crime!

That could be such a cool book, but I really can't envision Pierce writing it.

Which book is Kylaia al-Jmaa from? I don't remember her at all.

I see nothing wrong with worldbuilding fic, except the sad fact that it doesn't have a particularly big audience. But I would read it!

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

I also have doubts about Pierce's ability to write a travelogue of Carthak...but I really want that map.

Maybe someday there will be a Tortall+ companion?

Maybe if the heroine weren't saving the entirety of Carthak, but just dealing with local problems? Oh! Oh! She could be one of the first female Imperial officials! A mage, maybe. Possibly the daughter of an ex-slave? She wears a veil and fights crime!

I dunno about TP, but I would write that (I gave Okha a sister who wears a veil and does science, so why not?).

Which book is Kylaia al-Jmaa from? I don't remember her at all.

She's the Shang Unicorn--Liam mentions her in LR, and she's also the subject of a short story that appeared in, iirc, Young Warriors (it's also in Tortall and Other Lands, I think, but I haven't bought that yet). Her people read more like nomadic African tribes to me, iirc, but the name is kinda pseudo-Arabic like the Bazhir names. But I don't think Pierce puts enough thought into names to use them as evidence.

I see nothing wrong with worldbuilding fic, except the sad fact that it doesn't have a particularly big audience.

Ha, well, if I wanted audience, I'd write Avengers fic, I guess? I don't think anything I've ever wanted to write Tortallwise has had a potentially big audience. I am a weirdo.

[girl-called-sun.livejournal.com]

The dynamic between Ozorne and Daine was interesting, I thought. There was more to it than just using her to hurt Numair. And, yes, Lindall was amazing. The dinosaur battle was one of my favourite parts of the series.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

Yes. He's genuinely fond of his birds, which I thought was an interesting touch - because Pierce never uses it to argue that he's not a rotten person or a terrible emperor. (I think he likes animals so much because he has total power over them - even more complete than over his slaves, as the animals can't even argue. He can only be benevolent when he's absolutely in control.)

It's hard to beat a scene that involves a DINOSAUR SKELETON ARMY. If any of the Tortall books were to be made into movies, I'd nominate Daine's books just because that scene would be so amazing.

[zodiacal-light.livejournal.com]

I am actually somewhat convinced that either Ozorne manipulated Jon into sending Numair in order to discredit the Tortallan delegation in the eyes of the rest of the world - see! Look! they sent back that traitor, they dare flaunt a convicted traitor right in front of my face! Clearly they don't take this seriously! - or Jon really is horribly inept, and thought, hey, Numair's our resident expert on Ozorne, and that either way this is the real reason the embassy went pear-shaped. Fishing rights, bah.

Am I the only one who doesn't think Ozorne's as batshit insane as people/the narrative try to make him out to be? Gah, I should write that head-canon post someday.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

These things are not mutually exclusive. The only way Jon would be silly enough to allow Ozorne to manipulate him into sending Numair is if he hadn't taken the ten seconds to think out "Maybe I shouldn't send Numair as part of a diplomatic delegation to the guy who declared him a traitor and feels a deep personal animus toward him."

I don't think Ozorne's batshit insane. He clearly doesn't think through his means very well - the Immortals aren't a very effective war strategy, IMO - although if Carthak's army is busy putting down revolts elsewhere in the empire, it may be the best Ozorne can do.

But his apparent aims - conquer Tortall! glorify the empire! and, as a happy afterthought, make Arram Draper suffer! - make perfect sense.

[zodiacal-light.livejournal.com]

"These things are not mutually exclusive." True.

I don't think the Immortals were his whole war strategy - I think they were a preemptive strike meant to soften Tortall up. And in that sense, they nearly work; it ultimately takes demigod Daine and divine/draconic intervention to save the day, and that's with Jon using the Jewel, Tortall actually having allied assistance, and Ozorne being, at that point, a batshit insane Stormwing.

His aims DO make sense, moreso, IMO, than most of Pierce's villains. Moreover, it's easy to see things from his perspective, esp. since I do think Tortall under Jon is canonically imperialist, and I also have a going theory that Barzun might have been, before Jasson conquered it, a province of Carthak. (The latter is admittedly not at all canon, and I have only very tenuous evidence and a lot of supposition to support it, but it's fun.) I also get the distinct sense that Carthak is more stable than people realize, and more stable than Tortall is, and that's at least partly to Ozorne's credit.

Kel has a line in PotS about how good kings are rarely good people, and I think that's bang on for Ozorne.

On the Numair thing - I actually think that Ozorne was not originally planning to execute Numair. I read the scene with Ozorne squishing teeny Numair as him finally deciding to just ignore diplomacy and go for it, which might explain the half-assed execution attempt.

Too bad he pissed off Daine.