osprey_archer: (books)
[personal profile] osprey_archer
John Ibson’s The Mourning After: Loss and Longing among Midcentury American Men is not the book that I expected it to be and also not great at being the book that it actually is.

I expected it to be a book about the abrupt shift in the understanding of masculinity and male intimacy in America following World War II. During the war, servicemen were encouraged to form powerful bonds with their fellow soldiers. The armed forces actually distributed a pamphlet called “My Buddy Book,” in which you were encouraged to record your buddy’s name, home address, height, weight, hair and eye color, favorite sports, hobbies, etc. (I am absolutely using this in a novel if I get a chance.) After the war, society basically decided that this whole “buddy” thing was very gay, which left a lot of soldiers unable to share or even internally acknowledge their profound grief over the loss of their buddies, because having such deep emotions about another man was suddenly suspect.

And it is about that… kind of… around the edges. But of his five chapters, Ibson devotes two to John Horne Burns (gay novelist, mostly forgotten today, perhaps because his treatment of homosexuality in his books ranges from ambivalent to hostile) and one to Gore Vidal’s The City and the Pillar. (I really ought to read Gore Vidal’s The City and the Pillar at some point, but in the one thing I read by him, a book introduction, he came across as completely insufferable, like a gay Clifton Fadiman.)

Then Ibson focuses his coda on John Knowles’ A Separate Peace, ending his discussion of that novel (and his book!) with the comment, “He places his characters in the closet, joined them in there, and shut the door.”

Wow! Wow! Look, I enjoy the queer reading of A Separate Peace as much as the next person, but it’s eminently possible to read it as a story of an intense and troubled friendship. Sometimes people write about friendship because friendship is what they want to write about! Sometimes an intense friendship is, in fact, a friendship, and the participants aren’t banging and don’t want to bang!

I felt that in his heart Ibson was only interested in buddies who were actually lovers, and the book would have been stronger if he had admitted that and tightened his focus ever so slightly. (Most of his material is about that anyway, so it wouldn’t require THAT much work.) Or, perhaps, if he had admitted outright, “I think American culture was wrong to judge these men harshly for it, but you know what, I agree with the postwar cultural assumption all intense emotional attachments between men MUST be sexual! The US Army in World War II was the Theban Band! How do you like them apples?”

He never does say this outright, but the implicit belief animates many of his analyses - like his reading of A Separate Peace. The book only makes sense to him if you read Gene and Phineas’s relationship as a romance.

And to add insult to injury, he has this horrible tendency to write pages and pages of minutia. For instance, he quotes from every single contemporary review of almost every book that he discusses. It would probably be possible to do this in a way that is both interesting and instructive, but here it's just an endless list with a light sprinkling of shallow analysis.

There is some interesting stuff in here: I enjoyed the chapter about photos of men, which notes the persistence of affectionate buddy photos through World War II, and their total disappearance just a few years later during the Korean War. But I came here for the buddies and it turns out that Ibson is not, in fact, interested in buddies at all.

Date: 2022-05-04 02:37 am (UTC)
sovay: (Claude Rains)
From: [personal profile] sovay
Sometimes people write about friendship because friendship is what they want to write about! Sometimes an intense friendship is, in fact, a friendship, and the participants aren’t banging and don’t want to bang!

It's true and you should say it!

Date: 2022-05-04 06:27 pm (UTC)
sovay: (Claude Rains)
From: [personal profile] sovay
If postwar society had been more accepting of sexual relationships between men, but couldn't fathom the idea that someone could deeply grieve a non-sexual friendship, there would still have been an awful lot of men who were basically being informed they weren't allowed to grieve, you know?

I agree. Society right now is not great about the depth and validity of non-sexual friendships! It is a thing that bugs me very much.

Is the disappearance of buddy photos from the Korean War as closely tied in time to the mid-century lavender scare as it sounds to me?
Edited Date: 2022-05-04 06:31 pm (UTC)

Date: 2022-05-04 08:54 pm (UTC)
sovay: (Sovay: David Owen)
From: [personal profile] sovay
But they liked each other a lot to get the photo in the first place, given that by that time it was no longer common or encouraged.

Good for them! No matter how awkward. Maybe there are some decent civilian candids at barbecues or whatever.

Date: 2022-05-04 09:14 pm (UTC)
sovay: (Morell: quizzical)
From: [personal profile] sovay
Ibson also has a number of civilian candids (the photo section is actually quite good), and those don't show the same near-total disappearance of buddy shots.

This book's ratio of intriguing data to decent analysis really sounds obnoxious.

Date: 2022-05-10 03:11 pm (UTC)
lokifan: Prompto & Noct from the Moogle festival (Promptis: these dorks)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
ARRRRGH. This actually once again makes me think of FFXV fandom - overall it's actually good at letting boys be buddies, I'd say, probably in large part because a) the central friendships are, afaik, universally agreed to be the strongest part of the game whereas the gesture at a romance is enormously meh and b) there are four friends, so you can do ship stuff while having strong friendships included as well, which I love. (E.g. one of my favourite fics is about this guy Noct being really jealous when one of their other friends flirts with his best friend Prompto, even though he's not into Prompto romantically, and then realising it's because they're such close friends that he's jealous of Prompto's attention in general. He does get over himself, lol.)

But there's definitely the occasional fannish 'there is no heterosexual explanation for this!' where 'this' is like, being really upset that you were tricked into shoving your best friend off a moving train??? And I'm just like "do none of you like your friends?????"

Date: 2022-05-12 12:54 pm (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Default)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
Not only do I think that most people would find it upsetting to push a friend off a train, I believe that most of us would be upset if we got tricked into pushing a perfect stranger off a train. It's just an upsetting thing to happen.

lolololol true

Date: 2022-05-04 09:20 am (UTC)
littlerhymes: (Default)
From: [personal profile] littlerhymes
The armed forces actually distributed a pamphlet called “My Buddy Book,”

This is incredible, good grief. And those poor soldiers afterwards... But yeah this book sounds very frustrating!

The City and the Pillar is very readable (until you get to the tragic ending lol).

Date: 2022-05-04 02:01 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
I think I have seen those buddy pictures online!

The first thing I ever encountered by Gore Vidal was Myra Breckenridge (because of the movie I think) and I never wanted to read anything by him ever again.

Date: 2022-05-04 04:20 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
The photos were great!

With the caveat I read MB maybe sometime in the mid-eighties, I found it to be a deeply repulsive book about a trans woman.

Date: 2022-05-04 06:57 pm (UTC)
sovay: (I Claudius)
From: [personal profile] sovay
Admittedly I have not actually read any of Gore Vidal's books... but nothing I have read about him suggests that that is a topic he would handle well.

Gore Vidal was invaluable as a script doctor on the 1959 Ben-Hur and the 1968 debate with William F. Buckley Jr. where Buckley lost his temper and homophobically threatened Vidal for backing him into a corner he couldn't intellectually defend is fascinating because it looks now like a direct line to our current politics. I tried one or more of his novels and bounced so comprehensively that I can't even remember which ones, except I don't think Myra Breckinridge because I feel like I would have remembered a badly handled trans angle. He is, however, responsible for one of the best entries I have ever heard in that game where you build sentences out of the names of authors combined with the titles of their work: Two Sisters Gore Vidal. (My other favorite is The Man Who Melted Jack Dann.)

Date: 2022-05-04 02:10 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: created by the ninja girl (Default)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
Aww man, the encouraging and then discouraging of the buddy thing is making me feel very sad.

Sometimes an intense friendship is, in fact, a friendship RIGHT?! Why do people have to be reductionist? Isn't there room for more than one idea in the world? So much discussion seems to be along the lines of "It all boils down to...." But not all things boil down to some other thing! And sometimes things can have powerful points of similarity and still be different--or at least, shall we say, can also have points of difference! A domestic dog may be more like a wolf than it is like a shark, and a dog and a shark may be more like each other than they are like a volcano, and all those things may be more like each other than they are like electromagnetic radiation but like... they all have points of difference! And you might want to talk about dogs without having to say that they're interchangeable with wolves.

Date: 2022-05-04 03:40 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: (Aquaman is sad)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
Yeah, a mean trick.

Date: 2022-05-10 03:11 pm (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Default)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
SO cruel and sad :(

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