osprey_archer: (Default)
[personal profile] osprey_archer
Never completely rehabilitated, they remembered their years of captivity with horror, but many also told me their lives would have been incomplete without that experience.

It was hard for me to accept this.


This quote comes from Monica Zgustova’s Dressed for a Dance in the Snow: Women’s Voices from the Gulag, but it kept running through my head as I read Pat Beauchamp Washington’s Fanny Goes to War, a memoir published in 1919 of Washington’s years in France and Belgium as part of the First Aid Nursing Yeomanry (F.A.N.Y.). She drove ambulances. She worked in the hospitals, nursing both typhoid patients and the severely wounded. She lost her own leg when a shell hit her ambulance.

She writes it all as a jolly hockey sticks romp. The basic tone throughout the book (and this is an exact quote) is “I wouldn’t have missed it for anything.”

It was hard for me to accept this. I went into World War I memoirs inclined to dismiss the jolly hockey sticks stuff as mere propaganda; ditto anything about the glory and heroism of the war. But this is the third memoir I’ve read that takes this approach, and the third time I’ve gone “God, the writer really means it,” and it has occurred to me, finally, that I should actually listen to the memoirists. Otherwise what is the point of reading memoirs?

Not that I need to accept their interpretation of the war as a whole. But I need to accept that this is what they actually felt about their own experiences.

There’s an argument in World War I historiography which kind of memoir captures the “truth” of the war: the jolly hockey sticks memoirs most commonly published during and just after the war, or the brutality-of-war memoirs that tended to come later. (Although Ellen La Motte’s incredibly bitter The Backwash of War was published in 1916, so this is only a tendency, not an absolute division.)

But, as Hornung comments in Notes of a Camp-Follower on the Western Front, “what has interested me ever since [his time near the front lines] is the hopelessness of expecting two persons to give anything like the same account of a violent experience.” Pat Beauchamp Washington can write a jolly hockey sticks romp of a nursing memoir (after, let me repeat, losing her leg) and Ellen La Motte can write an embittered one and they can both be writing the truth of their own lives.

Date: 2021-08-07 11:40 am (UTC)
lilysea: Serious (Default)
From: [personal profile] lilysea
I wonder how much of the difference can be explained by people's different experiences BEFORE the war?

After all, if you're escaping a controlling/abusive parent or spouse by going to the war front/behind the lines;

or if you are same-sex attracted and the war front/behind the lines lets you meet sexual/romantic partners for the first time

that is obviously going to make a big difference to people's experience of the war front/behind the lines...

Date: 2021-08-07 12:03 pm (UTC)
rmc28: Rachel in hockey gear on the frozen fen at Upware, near Cambridge (Default)
From: [personal profile] rmc28

Or if you just like, get to be competent and useful, and have lots of exciting adrenaline rushes, perhaps for the first time in your life. That can feel really good, even if it's for terrible reasons.

(one of my issues in my job is that solving urgent crises in IT is way more exciting in the moment than carefully planning and setting things up so that everything works very boringly and reliably and there are no urgent crises or at least a lot less of them; I have internalised saying things like "no heroics" and "keep it boring" because that is actually more of a challenge)

Date: 2021-08-07 02:04 pm (UTC)
troisoiseaux: (Default)
From: [personal profile] troisoiseaux
My impulse - having not read any of the memoirs in question - is that there has to be an element of this that's a coping mechanism?

Date: 2021-08-09 05:08 pm (UTC)
oracne: turtle (Default)
From: [personal profile] oracne
I think for many women, especially upper class women, the freedom to do useful jobs that mattered might have been a big part of it.

Date: 2021-08-07 06:27 pm (UTC)
sovay: (Rotwang)
From: [personal profile] sovay
or if you are same-sex attracted and the war front/behind the lines lets you meet sexual/romantic partners for the first time

Not pertinent to WWI, but if you have not read James Lord's My Queer War (2010), I recommend it.

Date: 2021-08-07 01:52 pm (UTC)
littlerhymes: (Default)
From: [personal profile] littlerhymes
I remember studying oral history and this idea of narrative, that people do tend to want to fit their lives into a narrative and the choice of narrative is a sign about the motivations people have for telling their story and where they see themselves. So the person who writes a jolly wartime story perhaps wants to show they had control and agency of this time in their lives; though at other points in their life that narrative might change and they might want to show a darker side to things and tell the story in a different way. I think this kind of framing is so important in memoir which is so personal and subjective.

Date: 2021-08-08 02:12 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: (miroku)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
This is really interesting and definitely something I can relate to personally. As an adolescent, I altered the type of diary I kept so that I could control how my future self perceived my past self. So yeah, I can definitely understand framing changing for these reasons.

Date: 2021-08-09 02:43 am (UTC)
asakiyume: The Red Detachment of Women (1961, Xie Jin) (emancipating collectively)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
Neither of those--well, sometimes I tore out stuff I didn't like, or crossed it out, but I think lots of people do that.

No, I mean I changed the style/presentation/type of thing I wrote about. Instead of trying to write about my feelings, which would be hopeless and show me in a poor light, I decided just to do things like write artful poems, or copy in other people's artful poems, or write little tiny vignettes about butterflies or rain or what-have-you. I could look back at those (so I thought) and go, "Oh, nice!"

But so, I wasn't trying to fabricate or misrepresent, just trying to highly control what I represented... if that's a valid distinction.

Date: 2021-08-09 04:37 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: (feathers on the line)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
YES exactly that

in a way that continued with LJ--but inevitably real life and real personality creeps in, LOL.

Date: 2021-08-09 05:08 pm (UTC)
oracne: turtle (Default)
From: [personal profile] oracne
I like this idea.

Date: 2021-08-07 02:43 pm (UTC)
hedgebird: (Default)
From: [personal profile] hedgebird
My main source of WWI recs, George Simmers at his Wordpress blog Great War Fiction, often remarks that the perceived divide in "eras" of memoirs (and other contemporary writing) is seriously overstated. I haven't read a fraction of what he has, but enough to make me smh at current historical fiction whose characters' attitudes to the war chimes perfectly with modern popular consensus. Always seems a bit patronizing.

Date: 2021-08-07 08:18 pm (UTC)
sovay: (Rotwang)
From: [personal profile] sovay
the popular modern consensus is so thoroughly shaped by what happened after (the war did NOT, in fact, end all wars)

I agree that it's all but impossible not to look back through a century of popular reception, but you can see that consensus of futility forming even before it's apparent that a second world war is on the horizon: I know there was more variation in the immediately proximate literature, but silent and pre-Code films about the war are overwhelmingly cynical and/or pacifist. The earliest I have personally seen is Abel Gance's J'accuse (1919)—partly shot in the last months of the war—which legendarily climaxes with a vision of the risen dead of the trenches returning home to demand of their families whether their sacrifice was in vain and ends with the shell-shocked hero denouncing the sun for shining indifferently on the obscenity of war. The latest of my experience is either No Greater Glory (1934) or The Lost Patrol (1934), depending on whether an actual wartime setting is required for purposes of this argument. I suspect some of what changed with the onset of WWII was the depth or perhaps the direction of the futility: it's painful enough in the '20's and early-to-mid-'30's to imagine that empires disintegrated and millions died for a global emoji shrug, but after 1939 it is almost unbearable irony that the war did not only fail to end but directly begat another war. And no one making art before that watershed moment knew it, which is why I have increasingly little time for a certain kind of irony in historical fiction. We don't always have to feel smug about what the characters can't know.

Date: 2021-08-09 02:32 am (UTC)
sovay: (Rotwang)
From: [personal profile] sovay
I think what I'm seeing is not so much that there isn't a consensus, but that any consensus, no matter how widespread, will always have dissenters.

Obviously it sounds like a punch line, but I agree with that. I was just observing that the hindsight of WWII was not necessary for the consensus of what was it all for, then—it just helped solidify it.

Date: 2021-08-08 06:14 pm (UTC)
hedgebird: (Default)
From: [personal profile] hedgebird
NGL, I've bookmarked far more recs than I've ever followed up on (and my main interest is in the Ottoman fronts now.) The most purely entertaining memoir I've read is probably the chaplain Frederick Scott's The Great War As I Saw It (it's on Gutenberg), who had a sense of humour and a remarkable range of experiences. War Letters of a Young Queenslander by Dr. Robert Marshall Allen (at LibriVox) is one I remember as having useful descriptions of how medical evacuations and so on worked. A Century Back is another blog I used to read daily – it follows an array of mostly UK writers through the war in pseudo-realtime using their letters/diaries/memoirs/fiction. I remember you've reviewed a couple of nurses' memoirs, so Kate Luard, Dorothy Feilding, or Vera Brittain might be of interest to you over there.

Thinking about it, there are two different but easily-conflated axes of feeling about the war in contemporary stuff I've read: I'm having a great time/I'm not having a good time, and the war is worth it/not worth it. And it's the second axis where there really was a big shift afterward. During the war itself, unfun+worthwhile is the most common attitude I've read, but you got all combinations: fun+worthwhile, awful+worthwhile, awful+not worthwhile, though I don't think I've personally encountered "it's not worth it, but I'm having a great time!" Then by the late 1920s far more people had concluded that it wasn't worth it, and that got confused in hindsight with a bad time being had by all.

Date: 2021-08-07 04:48 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] anna_wing
One has to see through one's own lenses, but not forget that they're not the only ones, and that everyone else has their own...

Date: 2021-08-07 11:06 pm (UTC)
rachelmanija: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rachelmanija
A lot of British war memoirs have a "jolly good fun!" tone, no matter what's going on. It was clearly a genuine cultural thing of a certain period; not everyone actually felt that way, but I think a lot of people did. It can't all be propaganda or what's expected, as it also turns up in diaries that were kept over a period of years and were only published after (sometimes long after) the death of the writer.

Date: 2021-08-08 08:42 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] anna_wing
My boarding-school did a ski-trip every winter, and every year, coming back for winter term, there'd be a parade of girls in casts, braces, crutches etc (it is why I have never felt the slightest desire to learn downhill skiing; cross-country, maybe). It was nonetheless always agreed to have been Jolly Good Fun, and there was always a long waiting list.

There was also winter hockey-practice at 6 am. It's really all in what you consider normal.
Edited Date: 2021-08-08 08:50 am (UTC)

Date: 2021-08-08 02:09 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: (miroku)
From: [personal profile] asakiyume
But I need to accept that this is what they actually felt about their own experiences.


It can be really hard to do this when the feelings are hard to understand, but yeah. At least as a starting point. Sometimes how we're understanding what they're saying is skewed (like what you were saying earlier about the words "lover" etc.), and sometimes stuff needs to be contextualized and so on, but yeah, if someone says "I like oranges; they are a delicious fruit," you have to at least start with them liking oranges.

Date: 2021-08-13 07:15 am (UTC)
philomytha: airplane flying over romantic castle (Default)
From: [personal profile] philomytha
Ooh, I need to read this now (I am also backreading your DW and discovering my TBR list doubling in length). I've also been reading WW1 stuff and one of the books I read has a discussion of men who enjoyed their time in the trenches and who actively preferred being in the front line trenches to being in the reserves or at the rear, and how that could possibly be true. In this case it's less that some people genuinely like being shelled while up to their necks in mud, and more that some bits of the front line trenches were sufficiently peaceful that you could lie in the grass behind the trench all day reading a book and nobody expected you to do any drilling, but it still gave me the same 'huh? this is not the WW1 I had heard about before' feeling. It's 'Trench Warfare 1914-18: The Live and Let Live System by Tony Ashworth.

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