Seriously, Thom. What were you thinking???

[osprey_archer]

I'm going to get back to George and the Bazhir (and, now that I've finished Lioness Rampant, the Doi and the K'mir, and Pierce's treatment of tribal peoples in general). But for now, on the topic of Lioness Rampant: my kingdom for some motivations!

I mean, I can just about wrap my mind around Roger's motivations (thwarted ambition! Also, being dead makes you crazy), and Delia's (who thinks she's going to be Roger's queen), and Josiane's (thwarted love for Jonathan/being Jonathan's queen! Also, apparently being from the Copper Islands makes you crazy), and Ralon's (thwarted ambition again. Jon and company chased him out of page training, for what was - in Ralon's mind, at least - mere customary hazing of Alanna).

But Alex. Alex's motivation is that - he wants to prove he's a better swordsman than Alanna? I'm not at all clear that this is his motivation, but no better explanation is offered...except that even by the fairly low standards set by the other villains' motivations, this makes no sense.

Why does proving that he's a better swordsman than Alanna involve sitting back and letting Corus be destroyed? - and the text states explicitly that Alex knows Roger's true plans (is, in fact, the only one who does; Delia et al just think Roger means to be king), so it's not like he doesn't know what's going to happen. He can't just corner her during sword practice and badger her into a duel?

But most of all, WHAT IS DRIVING THOM? Yes, yes, he wanted to prove he was a great sorcerer by resurrecting a dead person, but Tortall is a large kingdom with lots and lots of dead people, most of whom are not traitors to the crown who were killed by his very own twin sister, any one of whom Thom could resurrect!

(Also, doesn't resurrecting a traitor to the crown seem awfully treasonous? Or is that just me?)

I've read that in the original, unpublished, adult book version of SotL, Thom and Roger were lovers (which is its own barrel of worms...) but that doesn't make any sense in SotL as published, because Thom hates and fears Roger even more than Alanna, so clearly is not so in love with him to bring him back from the dead against all reason.

I can only assume that the Sorcerer's Sleep Roger cast upon himself included a compulsion that forced Thom to raise him. It would have been nice to have that stated somewhere.

Comments

[asakiyume.livejournal.com]

I am enjoying your essays on these so much, and I only know them vicariously through amanen (who only read the ones where Alanna was a page, etc.).

[ladyherenya]

Good point, er, points! I've never considered it. I spent most of the books being baffled by Alanna's motivations - I thought hers were properly addressed but I just couldn't always relate - which didn't leave a lot of room for considering anyone else's...

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you've been enjoying them! I'm surprised they make sense without knowing the books, but hey, not gonna complain.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

I always found Kel's motivations, in the Protector of the Small books, must easier to grasp than Alanna's. (I also looooved Daine, but she doesn't have a big overarching motivation like they do. Life just keeps thrusting adventures at her, and she responds.)

[anait.livejournal.com]

I'm going to get back to George and the Bazhir (and, now that I've finished Lioness Rampant, the Doi and the K'mir, and Pierce's treatment of tribal peoples in general).

Please do!

I've read that in the original, unpublished, adult book version of SotL, Thom and Roger were lovers (which is its own barrel of worms...)

I'm really, really glad that didn't make it into the YA book. Boo, for gross, outdated (hopefully outdated!) stereotypes.

I can only assume that the Sorcerer's Sleep Roger cast upon himself included a compulsion that forced Thom to raise him.

Hey! That's a pretty good idea!

OH THOM.

Here. Have a Thom Redemption AU drabble I wrote back in 2008.

INTJ solidarity! ;)

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

I feel so bad for Thom. Admittedly most of his suffering is self-inflicted. But still, he's so tragic and alone! And really incredibly stupid for being so smart.

And yes! We INTJs must unite!

[coraa.livejournal.com]

I haven't reread the original Alanna books in years, but I remember having a vague sense that Alex (and possibly Thom, and some of his other minions) were victims of some kind of mind control/magical influence of Roger's. It occurs to me just now that that may very well be not in the text at all, and is instead just Teenage Me making up an explanation for otherwise inexplicable Supporting The Guy Who Wants To Wreck Everything!

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

I think that it is probably just an explanation you made up...but it makes so much more sense than the explanation in the book! Because there isn't much explanation in the book. And it would be totally in character for Roger.

Although if it's true, it's totally sad that their families are still getting punished for treason years later. Because it's not like Alex and Delia wanted to commit treason! They were forced into it by Roger's evil mind-magic!

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

Delia's (who thinks she's going to be Roger's queen)

I'm not sure she actually does--I mean, she'd have to be pretty stupid to think Roger is planning to be a functional king, and not just burn shit to the ground. IDK, I'm probably too attached to my Hill Country nationalist Delia.

Also, apparently being from the Copper Islands makes you crazy

Josiane is named as the daughter of whatshisface in one book, and the niece in the other. Possibly she is the product of intense inbreeding?

Alex's motivations make NO sense, my god. Unless I argue that he's a Hill Country nationalist, too.

I'm inclined to think that Roger managed to plant some kind of compulsion in Thom at some point without Thom realizing (and while I think they might have been lovers, I doubt it was healthy or that Thom was in love).

But everyone's motivations in LR are a bag of cats, unfortunately.

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

I'm really, really glad that didn't make it into the YA book. Boo, for gross, outdated (hopefully outdated!) stereotypes.

For extra squick factor, Roger is based on an ex of TP's that she really dislikes. So she decided to make him evil and gay. Not problematic at aaaaaalllll, no.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

I agree that Delia-wants-to-be-Roger's-queen doesn't make much sense, but it's the explanation the text offers. Delia-the-Hill-Country-rebel is infinitely superior, but it does have to be excavated with a pickaxe.

Maybe Delia wants to be queen of the newly liberated Hill Country? They had to have some ruling family pre-Tortallan invasion. Maybe it was the Eldornes.

POOR THOM. He has such a tragic and lonely life, which is admittedly largely his fault, as he goes out of his way to push everyone away, but...it's still so saaaaaad.

Maybe he was under the impression that sleeping with Roger would help him learn Roger's secrets and keep an eye on him. Thom is so convinced that he's cleverer than everyone that he just didn't notice that Roger was manipulating him/planting a compulsion.

[anait.livejournal.com]

For extra squick factor, Roger is based on an ex of TP's that she really dislikes. So she decided to make him evil and gay.

I didn't know that.

OH TAMORA PIERCE NO! *facepalm*

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

I forget where she mentioned the "based on her ex" thing, but. I'm sure she didn't mean it that way, and for all I know, when she decided Thom and Roger were lovers, it was a decision unrelated to Roger being based on a hated ex, but it all adds up kind of ickily.

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

Delia-the-Hill-Country-rebel is infinitely superior, but it does have to be excavated with a pickaxe.

I know, right!

One of my problems with the whole Roger conspiracy is that--well, logically, Roger should be a smart villain. He should be clever and manipulative and complicated.

But he's...not. He's really kind of stupid. His whole conspiracy is stupid. His motivations are nonsensical (and I do not generally accept "he's craaaaazy" as a motivation). Even early on--insisting on dueling Alanna was dumb. I'm pretty sure he could have talked his way more or less out of that mess, or at least fled until Alanna's secret came out and her credibility was shot.

Basically, I want fic that handles the whole Roger-Thom-Alex-Delia-Josiane thing as if they are human beings with logical motivation of some kind and also brains. Because canon isn't it.

(I love Thom. He's so fucked up, but in a totally believable way--although HIS characterization jumps all over the place in canon, too.)

Maybe he was under the impression that sleeping with Roger would help him learn Roger's secrets and keep an eye on him. Thom is so convinced that he's cleverer than everyone that he just didn't notice that Roger was manipulating him/planting a compulsion.

I can absolutely see Thom thinking that, and telling himself that it doesn't matter if he's sleeping with Roger, HE knows where his loyalties lie (Alanna, pretty much) and so it'll be fine. But he's actually quite young and likely completely inexperienced, and Roger's good at messing with people's heads, soooo.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

I want fic that handles the whole Roger-Thom-Alex-Delia-Josiane thing as if they are human beings with logical motivation of some kind and also brains.

Is this the thing that your giant work-in-progress does?

Poor Thom. :( I could see him sleeping with Roger, certain that he's got it all under control, and - not falling in love with Roger - but becoming much fonder of him than would really be wise under the circumstances, just because Thom has isolated himself so much that he doesn't have anyone else to be fond of. (Except Alanna. But she's awfully far away.)

Roger of course would take advantage of this and play Thom and Delia off each other shamelessly. (Is Delia canonically sleeping with Roger? There's a very odd scene in ItHotG where she's all breathlessly adoring toward him, but I can't recall if they're actually lovers.)

But I guess it doesn't matter; Roger could play them off each other even if he's not sleeping with Delia. He strikes me as the kind of person who likes to see his subordinates squabbling.

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

Is this the thing that your giant work-in-progress does?

It's not that giant yet, but hopefully at least to some degree. Although it's mostly Delia, with a side of Roger and Alex, and some Jon Is An Ass. (I think he may have legit actually hurt Delia's feelings when he dumped her, actually.)

but becoming much fonder of him than would really be wise under the circumstances, just because Thom has isolated himself so much that he doesn't have anyone else to be fond of.

Yes, and probably also convincing himself Roger's less dangerous than he really is, because he's too close.

I can't remember if there's ever a definitive proof in canon that Delia's sleeping with Roger, but it's definitely a strong possibility. However, timelinewise, the way SOTL actually ended up, there's only about a week or so when Roger might have been sleeping with Thom, I think? I can't remember, Ankhiale and I figured it out at some point. And I am not sure about post-Resurrection Roger, tbh.

He strikes me as the kind of person who likes to see his subordinates squabbling.

I expect so. I'm not sure Alex and Delia get along, either.

[anait.livejournal.com]

So it does.

Yeesh.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

I think Thom mentions in one of his letters that Roger occasionally stops in the City of the Gods, so perhaps they could have had their affair then. But yes, there's like three days that they're at court together before Roger dies.

And post-Resurrection Roger seems unlikely to sleep with anyone.

I bet Alex and Delia hate each other. They probably both feel that Roger pays way too much attention to the other one. And they're both from the Hill Country, aren't they? There might be some old family rivalry there.

[zodiacal-light.livejournal.com]

Okay, so I am replying to this three months late, and randomly drive-by commenting at that, but this whole post touches on my single biggest pet peeve in Tortall: Thom's (and others') ooc-ness for the sake of plot. If there is one thing that drives the majority of my fics, it's this very problem.

Honestly? I see only five possibilities for Thom:
1. When Alanna mentions insanity in her family, she's really not joking. Thom, IMO, is canonically not ... stable, and I'm going by his pre-LR personality.
2. Thom was compelled by Roger. I think this is the most likely possibility, and we do know that Roger canonically compelled Jon and Alex.
3. Thanks to her problems with math and timelines, it is actually plausible that Roger had a legitimate claim to the throne; Thom could conceivably have learned of this and supported him.
4. Thom canonically is stated to be able to see the future. Maybe he did, and maybe he raised Roger deliberately so Roger could be permanently put down. This has the added angst factor of Thom probably knowing he'd die in the process, and it has the added benefit of making Thom somewhat heroic. In his inimitable way.
5. The most crackish but still semi-plausible explanation I can come up with is that Thom raised Roger deliberately to get revenge on Jon for Jon screwing with his sister. WWRLAM!Jon totally deserves to have to deal with a crazy zombie cousin.

Aaaand now I've just rambled all over your journal, and in a way old entry to boot. XD Can you tell I overthink things? Hi, Carmarthen sent me your way, and I've been mainlining all your Tortall posts, which are awesome and thinky.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

I agree that the compulsion thing is most likely, but I like "Roger's totally the legitimate heir!" better. It has far more "What is up with those crazy Contes?" potential.

Also, I like the idea of hero!Thom.

Do not fret about the oldness of the entry! I always welcome new comments!

[zodiacal-light.livejournal.com]

Honestly, Roger as the legit heir is the only way I can get a handle on his character. Otherwise he just seems so ... haphazard, IDK.

Thom the self-sacrificing hero is rapidly growing on me, though; it fits with his canon Gift, it allows for him to have both some similarity with his sister and some character growth, and it allows Thom - who, let us not forget, Roger essentially burns out from the inside - the ability to strike a blow against his tormentor.

IDK. I get why, thematically, Alanna had to be the one to kill Roger. But there's something uncomfortable about the way Thom's death is written, and I'm not sure I can quite pin it down.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

The problem with Roger-as-legit-heir is answering why he got passed over, and why no one talks about it. It's not like this is an esoteric detail, and it's difficult to imagine King Roald running a reign of terror to silence all memory of the fact that his older brother is totally older. Or bothering to run such a reign of terror but leave said older brother gallivanting around, studying magic and making problems.

Re: Thom's death. Is it because Thom seems so powerless in it? Even after he does finally ask for help, Roger still burns him out. Or because Alanna seems less affected by Thom's death than you might expect?

[zodiacal-light.livejournal.com]

I usually go with the idea, with Roger, that either he was far too young to become king when Jasson died (Roger's father pretty much has to have predeceased Jasson) and Roald was a regent who took over, which is not that implausible historically and who knows? could even have a basis in Tortallan law, or that something about Roger really disturbed Jasson, and he contrived to cut Roger out of the line of succession. Which is also not historically implausible. Both also have the added benefit of making it likely that some conservatives or other people would rally to Roger - which fits with some of what we see in canon, actually.

On Thom: I think it's both of those. I also got the distinct sense, the first time I read SotL, that this was somehow supposed to be poetic justice for Thom's crime of being overly ambitious and effing with the laws of nature, but then it turns out he didn't really raise someone really dead, and I have problems with the idea that the only way to atone for anything is to die miserably. That's probably not the idea Pierce was going for - she probably was just going for pathos - but first impressions tend to stick, y'know? It didn't help that I always read Thom as gay, and then Pierce kinda confirmed that, and so there was that sort of uncomfortable undertone of "being gay makes you crazy/evil and kills you" - which again, I don't think she meant at all, but.

Yeah, a lot of my reasons for being skeeved out by Thom's death are my own baggage, but it's not like I can magically excise that when reading. XD

Also, I just sort of feel like if we were really going for poetic justice with Roger's second death, it had to be either Thom or Si-cham (:D) who offed him.