Whither the Copper Isles?

[osprey_archer]

anait is an enabler. In my post about why Aly from Trickster’s Choice is such an irritating heroine, I commented to her that the whole duology would make so much more sense if Aly had been sent to the Copper Isles on purpose to spy for Tortall, rather than accidently captured by slavers -

And she said, (I am paraphrasing) “I would so read that AU.”

So I’ve been working on the political background.

During Kaddar and Kalasin’s betrothal arrangements, the Tortallans and Carthakis threw together a plan to divide the Copper Isles between them. (The Copper Isles are clearly Tortall’s Poland.) The Carthakis will keep Dunevon as their puppet king (thus obviating the need to assassinate a five-year-old...at least for now), while Sarai will act as puppet queen for Tortall.

But for this to work, the Tortallans need a spy in the Copper Isles to help the Balitangs get their rebellion off the ground. The spy needs to be competent enough to get the rebellion rolling. Yet the spy also needs to be totally unknown to the Rittevon’s intelligence network - and to be someone they’ll never suspect of spying. Most of all, the spy needs to be someone important enough that they’ll believe her when she says she has the backing of the king.

Enter Alianne of Pirate’s Swoop, daughter of the legendary King’s Champion and the King’s spymaster. She has the skills, she can go under the radar (who would suspect a sixteen-year-old slave girl of being a master spy?), and she has enough clout that the Balitangs will take seriously her offer of Tortall’s covert support for their rebellion.

Obviously Aly isn’t sharing the whole plan “puppet queen Sarai!” plan with the Balitangs, although the adults at least have probably guessed that Tortall isn’t acting out of unalloyed altruism. (Sarai and Dove may see Aly as their uncomplicated savior, at least at first. They are going to be deeply disillusioned.)

If Aly feels any pangs of conscience, she probably rationalizes it thus:

Tthe Balitangs aren’t strong enough to hold the throne on their own. Their rebellion will merely plunge the Copper Isles into a bloody and protracted civil war. Therefore, a swift invasion by Tortall will save lives.

Moreover, Tortallans will be way nicer to the raka than the luarin were. Tortall may even outlaw slavery: a political masterstroke which will endear their new Tortallan overlords to the raka and break the luarin nobles’ economic backbone!

(Plus, abolishing slavery will allow the Tortallans to see colonizing the Copper Isles as an example of their righteousness and benevolence. But Aly wouldn’t think of it like that. At this point, she simply assumes that Tortall always is righteous and benevolent.)

Unfortunately, once slavery has been outlawed in Tortall’s acquisitions, they will probably receive a steady stream of runaways from the Carthaki section of the Copper Isles. This will irritate the Carthakis, thus leading to the beginning of the end of the Carthaki/Tortall “Let’s screw the Copper Isles!” alliance - which will be further exacerbated when important mineral deposits are discovered along the near Carthaki/Tortallan border in the Copper Isles...

But that’s a story for Part II: In Which Aly Becomes a Traitor to the Crown of Tortall (and the Sisters Balitang Kick Ass).

Comments

[anait.livejournal.com]

Guilty as charged!

This is quite, quite awesome!

But that’s a story for Part II: In Which Aly Becomes a Traitor to the Crown of Tortall (and the Sisters Balitang Kick Ass).

Part II is my very favourite!


What do the gods think of all this?

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

Part II is going to be EPIC, man! Although also kind of heartbreaking. I cannot see Alanna being easily reconciled to her daughter being a traitor to the crown of Tortall.

I'm not sure how to work the gods into all of this. Doubtless the Goddess and the Graveyard Hag are pretty psyched about their countries getting new territories, but I'm not sure how to work Kyprioth in...I would hate to leave him out, because he and Aly do have this great banter...but obviously he can't be bopping around telling Aly "YOU ARE MY CHOSEN ONE. YOU WILL LEAD MY PEOPLE TO FREEDOM" if Aly is under the impression that she's leading his people to join the gentle embrace of Tortallan imperialism.

Maybe Kyprioth can have chats with Dove and Sarai until Aly has jumped onto the Copper Isles Libre bandwagon. (And then he will have chats with all three of them.) That has the nice side effect of lessening the white savior syndrome, too.

[anait.livejournal.com]

During Kaddar and Kalasin’s betrothal arrangements, the Tortallans and Carthakis threw together a plan to divide the Copper Isles between them.

The thought of Tortall and Carthak being political partners for anything makes me laugh and laugh!

I cannot see Alanna being easily reconciled to her daughter being a traitor to the crown of Tortall.

THIS, yes. Though I'm sure George and Aly's brothers would have some things to say. Another thought: how do George and Alanna feel about Tortall becoming an imperial power? Are they for it? Do they have deep misgivings and many arguments with King Jon and his advisors?

Maybe Kyprioth can have chats with Dove and Sarai until Aly has jumped onto the Copper Isles Libre bandwagon.

That sounds good! I can't see Kyprioth sitting around while his siblings plot to steal his domain.

Have you read Sally's story about the gods? It's how I think of them now. ;)

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

I think a story about Jon discussing his imperialist ambitions with his councillors might be in order. The problem is that it would be so tempting to make everyone I like anti-imperialist (...which means basically everyone but Jon. I read Woman Who Rides Like a Man first of all the Alanna books and it basically ruined my opinion of him), but of course that doesn't work.

I do think Alanna would have serious reservations about Jon's exciting forays into imperialism, and probably argued against it vociferously in private (which probably contributes to her displeasure with Aly and George's plan).

Whereas George - George has a capacity for darkness (he led a criminal underworld. He has an ear collection, for goodness sake!) which barely gets explored in the books. I could see him thinking, Tortall needs the resources from the Copper Isles, and will rule them so much better than the Rittevons, and on that basis thinking that Jon's plans of conquest are basically sound.

What about Jon's other councillors, though? Thayet, Raoul, Buri (would Buri be in a position that her opinion would matter?), Numair 'n' Daine, Lord Wyldon...I'm sure I'm missing some people...

I think it would be hilarious (in a darkly humorous kind of way) if most of Jon's councillors were all for imperialism, and Lord Wyldon is all "NO, the Copper Isles have never historically been one of Tortall's possessions! This is another upstart innovation!"

"But look how well my other upstart innovations have worked out!" stormed Jon. "You said yourself that Kel was your best pupil!"

(And how would Kel see this, I wonder? But that's even more off-topic than "How do Jon's councillor's feel about his dreams of conquest.)

[anait.livejournal.com]

I read Woman Who Rides Like a Man first of all the Alanna books and it basically ruined my opinion of him

Hee! I think that book ruined everyone's opinion of Jon, including mine!

I think all your ideas of the various characters vs. Tortallan imperialism are very good. I see some of them slightly differently.

Alanna is so devotedly loyal to Jon and to Tortall that of all the characters, I see her as the most likely to support it. (what you say below about there being no critique of Tortall's imperialism when it comes to the Bazhir is quite, quite true. We see the Bazhir through teenage!Alanna's eyes.) Perhaps as she matures, she starts to question some of her blind faith - I dunno.

George, on the other hand, I don't see as cynical. For all that he used to be a thief!king, in the Alanna books he was always the most moral of characters, the one that Jon and Alanna sought advice from in morally ambiguous situations. Again, people change; several decades as Jon's spymaster; etc., etc. I dunno.

Your Lord Wyldon comment - HAR! :D

Other councillors. The Gareths: the Elder and the Younger. (Also they're Jon's Prime Ministers. First one, then the other). They're conservative Old Blood with deep ties to the ruling family through marriage. They're also staunch supporters of Jon.

THAYET. I'm pretty sure she has some very strong ideas about imperialism. I don't know if Jon wants to hear them, but I sure do!

Buri and Raoul both hold important military positions (like Lord Wyldon). If things go south and it turns to war, they'd both be involved. So I think they'd get a say.

Others: Daine and Numair, as you said. Sir Myles.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

I think that certainly by PotS, some of the shine has rubbed off Jon for Alanna - the whole probation thing probably made some of the scales drop from her eyes. But doubts about Jon don't necessarily translate to doubts about Tortall, and you're probably right, she'd probably be just fine with invading the Copper Isles.

And I can also see your points about George...but I think if he had serious doubts about invading the Copper Isles, he wouldn't agree to send his beloved daughter to help with the takeover, and there goes my story, so we have to get him on board somehow.

Maybe he sees getting rid of the Rittevons as the lesser evil? Maybe he figures Carthak will take over all of the Copper Isles if Tortall doesn't step in, and that would be strategically inconvenient for Tortall and also probably wouldn't much help the raka. Or maybe his years as spymaster have changed him.

Daine and Numair seem like the biggest issue. If either of them has a crisis of faith in this imperial project, then it's toast, and they both have these pigheaded idealistic streaks...

But, again, Tortall doesn't seem to have an articulate anti-imperialist critique. So probably most of Jon's loyal counsellors aren't going to have moral objections to conquest per se, especially a conquest that's so easily glossed as a righteous fights against the evil Rittevons.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I haven't read Sally's story - I got so involved in chattering about Tortallan attitudes towards imperialism I forgot to answer that part. I'll read it after work.

Thinking more about Tortallan imperialism - given the Bazhir storyline in the Lioness Quartet, it doesn't seem like there's a real anti-imperialist critique in Tortall. As far as I can remember no one suggests that Bazhir country (which doubtless has a name, but I can't remember it) should be given back to the Bazhir; the good characters just feel that, as Bazhir is part of Tortall now, the Bazhir should be treated decently.

And the Tortallans would definitely treat the raka more decently than the Rittevons have, so from a Tortallan point of view, invading the Copper Isles might be A-OK.

...I need to do a post about Imperialism in Tortall, don't I? Which means I need to reread the Alanna books. (I'm going to end up reading all the Tortall books before this is over, I can feel it.)

[anait.livejournal.com]

As far as I can remember no one suggests that Bazhir country (which doubtless has a name, but I can't remember it) should be given back to the Bazhir; the good characters just feel that, as Bazhir is part of Tortall now, the Bazhir should be treated decently.

Yep, pretty much. The Bazhir live in the Great Southern Desert, which gets given to the lucky Lord Martin of Meron (Geoffrey's the page's father) as his fief, and he's responsible for keeping things quiet for the rest of Tortall. At least some of the Bazhir tribes are interested in integrating with the Tortallan rulers and their power structures: Ali Muktab; the Bazhir fighters who join The King's Own. Some are more hostile, but we don't spend much time with them. I remember a Tortallan-hating shaman who built a Gate of Idram (like Roger) and tried to kill Alanna at one point. (Or maybe he hated her because she was a woman doing traditionally male things and challenging his authority? It was in 'The Woman Who Rides Like A Man.')

It was Jon's grandfather King Jasson who had the delusions of grandeur and conquered the Great Southern Desert. I always had the impression from the books that he was a jerk.


Good luck with the re-read! ;)

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

I think that given that Jasson presumably conquered the Hill Country at the same thing, and they're STILL dirt-poor, like, 40+ years later...he was probably a jerk.

What bugs me is that Jon (and by extension Pierce) are sort of contemptuous of Roald's attempts to patch up the damage and make peace. I kind of think Jon is more in the model of his grandfather than his father, and I'm not sure that's a good thing.

But, uh, I may kind of hate Jon and have numerous ideological problems with Tortall Uber Alles.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

Tortall Uber Alles is one of those extremely frustrating missed opportunities in the text. If it were treated as Tortallan chauvinism rather than actual fact - if (good, moral, interesting) characters from other countries disagreed with it, and if Tortall's flaws were given more weight...

And Tortall does have plenty of flaws - which get pointed out in text - that could be given more weight, but somehow they're always presented as infinitely less bad in comparison to Carthaki slaveholding and Copper Islands everything and the Scanrans...being Scanran. (I can't remember if the Scanrans have any flaws other than being anti-Tortall - at least until the Kel books, when they get the creepy mage who steals children's souls.)

But the story never goes there.

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

*nods* Whenever people from other countries do disagree, the narrative kinds of dismisses it as "Silly foreigners! What can't they see how awesome we are!"

(This is probably why I really wish there were more stories set in other countries, and more AUs where things don't always run so smoothly for Tortall.)

I am also pretty baffled that, like, almost every country literally *cannot function economically without slaves.* Except Tortall, I guess. Like, historically, countries whose entire economies were based on slavery (and not, say, feudalism or serfdom, which may bear some resemblances but are no the same thing)...well, I'd say they're in the minority. But I had HUGE WHONKING ISSUES with how she handled slavery and colonialism in the Trickster books. :-(

I think the Scanrans are basically just sexist barbaric Vikings, up until creepy mage, who is at least presented as non-typical. But "rapacious barbarian hordes vs. civilization as represented by Tortall" isn't unproblematic ("O Goddess save us from the fury of the Scanran"?).

IN CONCLUSION: FANFIC. ALL THE FANFIC.

(This is my disconnect with Tortall fandom: I really want stuff that gets at the cultural issues and the worldbuilding and the politics, and most of the fandom is super ship-focused, and primarily on ships that are Tortallan main cast. I mean, I like shippiness, but I kind of want that other stuff embedded around it. And I would happy read gen epics about politics, for serious.)

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that the Trickster books are entirely composed of Issues, with nothing but Dove and Taybur to compensate for it. (And Sarai, pre-character assassination in Trickster's Queen.)

What interests me about the Scanran is that we don't know much about them in canon - unlike the Copper Islands and Carthak, we never go into Scanra and see all their flaws in gruesome detail. So there's more room to interpret Tortall's "barbarian Scanran hordes!" attitude as Tortallan chauvinism, and not an accurate reflection of Scanran culture. I mean, sure, the Scanrans invade Tortall, but it's not like the Tortallans are averse to invading people when they feel like it.

And so much yes about Tortallan fandom. (About a lot of fandoms, really.) There's nothing wrong with shipping, but - there's so much potential here for political strife and worldbuilding and and and so many other fun things!

(Speaking of world-building fic, I wrote a bizarre and cracky story a few years ago about Scanran culture: A Study of the Effects of Amatory Verse on the Socio-Sexual Behavior of Scanran Youths (http://osprey-archer.livejournal.com/26066.html).)

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that the Trickster books are entirely composed of Issues, with nothing but Dove and Taybur to compensate for it. (And Sarai, pre-character assassination in Trickster's Queen.)

IT IS AS IF YOU ARE INSIDE MY BRAIN. Do you, by chance, do IM or IRC? Because I like talking about Tortall in real-time, and if I could lure zodiacal-light back to IM, I think we could have some awesome conversations. :D

So there's more room to interpret Tortall's "barbarian Scanran hordes!" attitude as Tortallan chauvinism, and not an accurate reflection of Scanran culture. I mean, sure, the Scanrans invade Tortall, but it's not like the Tortallans are averse to invading people when they feel like it.

Absolutely.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

I have tragically sporadic internet access at the moment. However! When this situation changes (which it won't until July - my first world problems, let me show you them), I will remind you of this offer.

It will be just about then that I'll have quality time to get some fic-writing done, too. Oh rapture, oh bliss!

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

Higgur Studson. He has aided me in translation of a good many songs. For instance:

I cannot equivocate my appreciation for large posteriors.
My shield brothers cannot deny that a maiden of large derriere
Moves them to honor Freyr, god of virility…

I started laughing out loud at "Higgur Studson."

This is one of my favorite kinds of fic! I have actually toyed with the prospect of writing this kind of faux-academic thing in Tortall before, and I totally think it should be the new trendy subgenre!

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

Hey, the ladies really liked Higgur's father. No one even recalls his birth name anymore; he left it by the wayside before he so much as slew his first hart.

I totally think it should be the new trendy subgenre

LET US MAKE IT SO.

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

Okay, I am so culturally ignorant: I got the song reference, but I don't know who the guy in the drawing is. :-(

(I want to write a story about the far future Rogerian arguments, with a popular novelist based on Philippa Gregory who romanticizes Tortall and turned Roger into a giant villain, and a Rogerian society a la the Ricardians for Richard III. I have absolutely no idea how I would do it, though, partly because I have a great deal of trouble imagining the futures of fantasy worlds.)

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

The guy in the drawing is David Wenham, who played Faramir in LotR. I picked him because he's cute and Scanranish-looking; there's no special in-joke or anything.

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

Haha, okay. I am still giggling over "Herr Studson."

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

Dude, I would read that AU so hard (I have also vaguely toyed with the idea of writing an AU with no Aly, where Dove and Sarai are the actual protagonists and no Tortallan saviors are required). But I think it would require more rereading than I really want to do.

Anyway, I would read yours so hard.

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

Hopefully it will get written. So many things to write - so little time!